| Sparks
| #startmeeting Release Notes Meeting
| 15:05
|
| Sparks
| #topic Roll Call
| 15:05
|
| * Sparks
| 15:05
|
| jjmcd
| Ack - I totally forgot about this ;-)
| 15:06
|
| * rudi is here
| 15:06
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: Yeah, me too. I was trying to figure out why rudi was still up!
| 15:06
|
| rudi
| lolz
| 15:06
|
| * jjmcd was blogging on yesterday's meeting
| 15:07
|
| Sparks
| #topic Last meeting
| 15:08
|
| Sparks
| Okay from the last meeting I see...
| 15:08
|
| Sparks
| that we agreed to use Publican for everything
| 15:08
|
| Sparks
| that we needed three documents (right?)
| 15:08
|
| jjmcd
| 3 formats?
| 15:09
|
| Sparks
| three documents
| 15:09
|
| Sparks
| 1) "normal" RNs
| 15:09
|
| Sparks
| 2) "pretty" RNs (one-page by Marketing)
| 15:09
|
| Sparks
| 3) things to know about upgrading
| 15:10
|
| jjmcd
| Ahh yes, OK
| 15:10
|
| Sparks
| The agenda from last week was:
| 15:10
|
| Sparks
| 1. How to improve on the F12 RNs
| 15:10
|
| Sparks
| 2. What products need to be generated.
| 15:10
|
| Sparks
| 3. Using Publican for the RNs
| 15:10
|
| Sparks
| 4. Training people to write beats.
| 15:11
|
| Sparks
| Anything else we need to discuss?
| 15:11
|
| jjmcd
| Perhaps today we should address products
| 15:11
|
| Sparks
| okay
| 15:12
|
| Sparks
| #topic RN Products
| 15:12
|
| jjmcd
| We have agreement on 3 and last week we hit 1
| 15:12
|
| Sparks
| Yes, and I've successfully gotten a Publican package into the repo now
| 15:12
|
| Sparks
| So there are a few tweeks that need to be made but they aren't difficult
| 15:12
|
| jjmcd
| I think there is the question of what to produce for online, how to present it, and what is actually in fedora-release-notes.rpm
| 15:13
|
| Sparks
| Yes
| 15:13
|
| jjmcd
| Yeah, getting the rpm actually built isn't a big deal IMO
| 15:13
|
| Sparks
| So, IMO, we should provide the RN online in HTML, HTML-Single, and PDF
| 15:13
|
| rudi
| +1 -- I really don't think anyone will miss ZIP and TGZ if they're not there...
| 15:14
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: ?
| 15:14
|
| jjmcd
| But my question is what does that look like? The example you had wouldn't work for RN
| 15:14
|
| Sparks
| What does what look like?
| 15:14
|
| jjmcd
| The web page where the user selects what he wants
| 15:14
|
| Sparks
| Ahh
| 15:15
|
| rudi
| I think that ryanlerch has been working on that a little
| 15:15
|
| Sparks
| Well, it will probably (hopefully) be in Zikula by then so this will be a moot point but...
| 15:15
|
| rudi
| Trying to work out how to tidy up the index page a bit
| 15:15
|
| Sparks
| I made a table that can be seen at docs.fedoraproject.org/security-guide.
| 15:15
|
| Sparks
| It isn't complete but is the basis for not having a complicated jumble
| 15:16
|
| jjmcd
| Does that really change anything? The user still needs to be faced with an incredible array of choices.
| 15:16
|
| jjmcd
| Well, that isn't terrubly useful
| 15:16
|
| rudi
| (ryanlerch is ECS's graphics go-to-guy)
| 15:16
|
| Sparks
| Actually use http://docs.fedoraproject.org/selinux-user-guide/
| 15:16
|
| Sparks
| My table is jacked up, apparently
| 15:16
|
| jjmcd
| the security guide only has a few languages, not 12 releases, 42 languages, live versus now
| 15:16
|
| Sparks
| Lots of choices isn't a problem. Being able to clearly see the choices is the problem
| 15:17
|
| Sparks
| why 12 releases?
| 15:17
|
| jjmcd
| We keep RN's online for past releases
| 15:17
|
| jjmcd
| 1512 products per release
| 15:17
|
| Sparks
| Hold on...
| 15:18
|
| rudi
| I think it's really important to have that archival material important; but does it need to be right there in the face of the user who's probably looking for the latest stuff?
| 15:18
|
| jjmcd
| You have like a dozen for security-guide
| 15:18
|
| Sparks
| We can group the different releases into their own tables and provide links to those at the top of the page...
| 15:18
|
| jjmcd
| rudi: I'll buy that
| 15:18
|
| Sparks
| but how do you get 1512 products per release?
| 15:18
|
| jjmcd
| whoops, I added in the 12, forgot the 2
| 15:19
|
| jjmcd
| OK, only 252
| 15:19
|
| Sparks
| How do you get 252?
| 15:19
|
| jjmcd
| 42 langs times 3 formats times 2 (we keep the original for live as well as most reent)
| 15:20
|
| Sparks
| Well, if we sort by language and each language has three options then it shouldn't be complicated.
| 15:20
|
| Sparks
| sort language alphabetically
| 15:21
|
| jjmcd
| I'm not sure we really need that but it's what we've been doing
| 15:21
|
| Sparks
| No, what I've seen is a jumble of language codes which is NOT user friendly
| 15:21
|
| jjmcd
| Hmmmm, with help from L10N we could have a language selection leading to a table of releases/formats
| 15:21
|
| Sparks
| There is a BIG difference between the release-notes and the selinux-user-guide page
| 15:21
|
| jjmcd
| Yes, hundreds of docs verses a handful
| 15:22
|
| Sparks
| But the way the RN languages are presented is not good
| 15:22
|
| Sparks
| it is very confusing
| 15:22
|
| jjmcd
| I agree, but RN's presented like SG would be much worse
| 15:22
|
| Sparks
| You can add every language you want to under the SELinux and everything will be easy to find
| 15:23
|
| jjmcd
| I'm not really thrilled with a 1000 line long list
| 15:23
|
| Sparks
| But it wouldn't be 1000 lines
| 15:24
|
| Sparks
| just 42
| 15:24
|
| Sparks
| sorted alphabetically by language
| 15:24
|
| jjmcd
| So you choose the release on a separate page?
| 15:24
|
| Sparks
| We'd put each release in it's own table to break it up
| 15:24
|
| Sparks
| nah, just stack the tables with links to the table at the top of the page or something
| 15:25
|
| jjmcd
| Oh, no, a link to previous releases which looks like the current, that might work
| 15:25
|
| Sparks
| but you could do separate pages
| 15:25
|
| rudi
| Or current-2 on the main page, and everything else on another page
| 15:25
|
| Sparks
| sure
| 15:25
|
| Sparks
| Might be interesting to break them all up on different pages just to see the hits
| 15:26
|
| jjmcd
| Yeah
| 15:26
|
| Sparks
| Of course this is a near-pointless conversation if we do get Zikula stood up before then
| 15:27
|
| jjmcd
| Why? We still have the question as to how to present it
| 15:27
|
| Sparks
| Yeah, but we might have a completely different set of ways to present it then
| 15:27
|
| Sparks
| drop down menus and other sexy things
| 15:27
|
| jjmcd
| Well, I haven't played with Zikula enough, but it doesn't seem to make that much difference. Personally, I'm mostly hoping to get away from that stupid CVS ;-))
| 15:28
|
| Sparks
| Well, I think Zikula will automate a few things for us.
| 15:29
|
| Sparks
| And we won't be waiting for hours while the docs.fp.o site updates
| 15:29
|
| jjmcd
| The release notes pages is already php, we could do drop downs and other goodies if we wanted
| 15:30
|
| jjmcd
| But it is kind of a pain to do anything when you have a bunch of character sets you can't read
| 15:30
|
| Sparks
| We could... I'm just not that talented anymore. If someone wants to do it I say go for it.
| 15:30
|
| Sparks
| Yes
| 15:30
|
| rudi
| I might forward this conversation to ryan when I see him in a few hours :)
| 15:31
|
| Sparks
| :)
| 15:31
|
| jjmcd
| OK, I'll go play with something on my local zikula instance and see if a vison comes down from the heavens, but a single list of langs with a link to old stuff sounds like good possibility
| 15:31
|
| Sparks
| Okay
| 15:32
|
| Sparks
| rudi: good for you?
| 15:32
|
| rudi
| All good
| 15:33
|
| Sparks
| #agreed a single list of langs with a link to old stuff sounds good for presentation on docs.fp.o
| 15:33
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: What's next?
| 15:33
|
| jjmcd
| OK, so what about f-r-n.rpm? Are we going to try to separate by lang?
| 15:33
|
| rudi
| Before we move on....
| 15:33
|
| Sparks
| rudi: Go ahead
| 15:33
|
| rudi
| I thought that we should probably talk about the "minor docs"
| 15:34
|
| jjmcd
| Yeah
| 15:34
|
| * Sparks has always been confused by the "minor docs"
| 15:34
|
| rudi
| These are currently packaged with the release notes, but I really don't think that they belong there.
| 15:34
|
| Sparks
| What are they?
| 15:34
|
| Sparks
| And why are they there?
| 15:34
|
| jjmcd
| These are the docs that can't drink
| 15:34
|
| rudi
| lolz
| 15:34
|
| rudi
| Readme
| 15:34
|
| Sparks
| Ha!
| 15:35
|
| rudi
| About Fedora
| 15:35
|
| rudi
| Readme-burning-isos
| 15:35
|
| jjmcd
| readme, readme-burning-isos, homepage, etc
| 15:35
|
| rudi
| readme-live-images
| 15:35
|
| rudi
| yeah
| 15:35
|
| Sparks
| I understand the "About Fedora". Why the others?
| 15:35
|
| rudi
| Legacy, I presume
| 15:35
|
| jjmcd
| About-Fedora shows up in yelp, but I wonder how many people ever trip across the others
| 15:35
|
| jjmcd
| Should they be in yelp too?
| 15:36
|
| Sparks
| Well... if we aren't presenting them in yelp why are they there?
| 15:36
|
| rudi
| In some ways, their scope makes them look lke ideal wiki contenders
| 15:36
|
| Sparks
| Couldn't we integrate it into a guide better?
| 15:36
|
| jjmcd
| Currently they are text
| 15:36
|
| rudi
| But static docs lend themselves better to localisation
| 15:36
|
| rudi
| and these docs have been *extensively* localised
| 15:37
|
| rudi
| (I presume because they're short and therefore attractive projects)
| 15:37
|
| jjmcd
| Perhaps about-fedora contains links to these docs instead of putting them in the rpm
| 15:37
|
| Sparks
| Well, can we either make them guides onto themselves or fold them into another guide
| 15:37
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: +1
| 15:37
|
| rudi
| jjmcd -- at the very most.
| 15:38
|
| jjmcd
| homepage is a different Q tho
| 15:38
|
| Sparks
| What is homepage?
| 15:38
|
| jjmcd
| What you get when you open Galeon
| 15:38
|
| jjmcd
| or maybe its epiphany
| 15:39
|
| rudi
| A page that loads in certain browsers if you start the browser without a net connection
| 15:39
|
| Sparks
| Ahhh
| 15:39
|
| jjmcd
| In at least one of them, you get it even if you have a connection
| 15:39
|
| rudi
| Heh
| 15:39
|
| jjmcd
| I think the connection thing used to be the case for firefox but isn't anymore
| 15:39
|
| * Sparks notes that FF starts http://start.fedoraproject.org
| 15:39
|
| rudi
| I think it's awful; all it can do is confuse users into thinking that they're online, when they're really not
| 15:39
|
| Sparks
| Well, I think it should be separate from the RNs
| 15:40
|
| rudi
| Sparks +1
| 15:40
|
| Sparks
| I don't like bundling all this stuff together
| 15:40
|
| jjmcd
| We need to understand what browsers use it and why
| 15:40
|
| rudi
| And if Galeon or something else needs it; it should belong to that package
| 15:41
|
| Sparks
| We need to identify the something else
| 15:41
|
| jjmcd
| If it's one browser I agree, but I think there are multiples
| 15:41
|
| rudi
| Or should be packaged up as a dependency for whoever needs/wants it.
| 15:41
|
| rudi
| (Or they should get their browsers to point to something more useful... this is 2009....)
| 15:41
|
| jjmcd
| Exactly, rudi
| 15:41
|
| Sparks
| yes
| 15:42
|
| jjmcd
| But we need to identify the affected browsers and contact their developers
| 15:42
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: Want to handle that?
| 15:42
|
| jjmcd
| I guess I can do that
| 15:42
|
| rudi
| As for "About Fedora"...
| 15:43
|
| Sparks
| #action jjmcd to determine the affected browsers and contact the developers for the homepage project
| 15:43
|
| rudi
| (sorry -- am I getting too far ahead?)
| 15:44
|
| jjmcd
| I've wanted an excise to see what browsers we have
| 15:44
|
| jjmcd
| lynx uses it even if you are connected
| 15:44
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: Yeah
| 15:46
|
| Sparks
| rudi: Go ahead with the "About Fedora'
| 15:46
|
| rudi
| I can see the importance of that if it shows up in Yelp; but it doesn't really have anything to do with the RNs
| 15:47
|
| rudi
| I just wonder if there's a better home for it...
| 15:47
|
| rudi
| (With yelp itself if that's the only place people will ever see it?)
| 15:48
|
| rudi
| (And who would miss it if it wasn't even there?)
| 15:50
|
| jjmcd
| Well, mostly it's recruiting
| 15:51
|
| Sparks
| I think it should be packaged separately
| 15:52
|
| Sparks
| I think it has its place in the OS but it is separate from the RN
| 15:52
|
| rudi
| +1
| 15:52
|
| jjmcd
| f-r-n.rpm currently contains all the OS docs installed on the users system. Do we buy a lot by breaking it up into multiple packages?
| 15:53
|
| rudi
| Well, it may only be two packages (three if we have to keep homepage)
| 15:53
|
| Sparks
| Well, that's less to download when there is an update of one piece
| 15:53
|
| jjmcd
| Yeah, but about-fedora and homepage are pretty tiny
| 15:54
|
| jjmcd
| We will add to the space we take on the live cd by breaking them up
| 15:54
|
| Sparks
| How much space? Is it negligable?
| 15:55
|
| jjmcd
| Its pretty small, but then every byte on the LiveCD is precious
| 15:55
|
| Sparks
| I agree
| 15:55
|
| Sparks
| Who is in charge of the LiveCD project?
| 15:55
|
| jjmcd
| Dunno? Is that Jeroen?
| 15:55
|
| Sparks
| I don't know. But if that is our blocker we should contact those folks
| 15:56
|
| jjmcd
| I gotta boogie here pretty soon, but I will go ahead and run a test to see what the price actually is
| 15:57
|
| rudi
| Well, if we can at least get the Live-Images and Burning-ISOs docs out of there this time around, that's a start :/
| 15:57
|
| Sparks
| DavidZeuthen
| 15:57
|
| jjmcd
| that's a new name to me. I think RelEng spends a lot of time stressing over it each release
| 15:57
|
| Sparks
| rudi: That's true. removing those docs will reduce the overall size that we've been pushing
| 15:57
|
| rudi
| ...and, more importantly, complexity and redundancy...
| 15:58
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: Jeremy Katz and Douglas McClendon too
| 15:58
|
| Sparks
| rudi: Yes
| 15:58
|
| jjmcd
| Maybe we add to Yelp an "Additional DOcumentation" topic that has links to install, security, etc
| 15:59
|
| Sparks
| #action jjmcd to determine space differentials between the combined RN and the individual files in RPMs
| 15:59
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: +1
| 15:59
|
| Sparks
| #idea break up all documents that are currently packaged as f-r-n.rpm into separate RPMs
| 16:00
|
| rudi
| #idea -- don't package any that we don't know that we have to
| 16:00
|
| Sparks
| #idea move Readme-burning-isos and readme into a guide
| 16:00
|
| Sparks
| anything else we need to capture?
| 16:00
|
| rudi
| I think that was it :)
| 16:01
|
| jjmcd
| OK, I gotta go, but I have a few action items (which I needed like a hole in the head)
| 16:01
|
| rudi
| That was my "wo minutes of minor docs hate"
| 16:01
|
| Sparks
| :)
| 16:01
|
| rudi
| jjmcd -- before you run
| 16:01
|
| jjmcd
| ?
| 16:01
|
| rudi
| Just a heads up that I branched f12 tonight
| 16:01
|
| jjmcd
| cool
| 16:01
|
| rudi
| (In case you didn't see)
| 16:01
|
| jjmcd
| appreciate it
| 16:01
|
| rudi
| And loaded in some dummy content that you can pull down and build :)
| 16:01
|
| jjmcd
| OK, so master is sstill F11, but we will change that after the next update to get in changes and new translations
| 16:02
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: I'm going to do a blog on the beats here in a minute
| 16:02
|
| rudi
| Yeah
| 16:02
|
| jjmcd
| good deal
| 16:02
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: Is there a link to the beats for f12?
| 16:02
|
| jjmcd
| wiki/Documentation_Beats
| 16:03
|
| Sparks
| cool
| 16:03
|
| Sparks
| anything else?
| 16:03
|
| rudi
| Not from me :)
| 16:03
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: you?
| 16:03
|
| jjmcd
| nope
| 16:03
|
| rudi
| We seem to average one agenda item per hour :)
| 16:03
|
| Sparks
| rudi: Yeah but we do get a lot done
| 16:04
|
| Sparks
| :)
| 16:04
|
| Sparks
| Okay...
| 16:04
|
| Sparks
| #endmeeting
| 16:04
|
