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Contributing Writer: [[NicuBuculei|Nicu Buculei]]
Contributing Writer: [[NicuBuculei|Nicu Buculei]]


=== No Echo forFedora 10 CD/DVD ===
=== Fedora Remix Mark ===


[[MartinSourada|Martin Sourada]] asked[1] in both @fedora-art and @fedora-desktop about a decision about the use of the Echo icon theme, which "[...] is the default icon theme in F10 since Beta (for testing purposes and exposition to wider audience)" in the upcoming Fedora 10. "What I'd like to ask you now is the preferred way to decide upon it. Should we hold a irc meeting, do a mail vote, set up a vote in the fedora voting system,other way?"
A few weeks ago when the process started, we reported about the request for a secondary trademark design for "Fedora Remix", a process which closed to the decision. On a tread crossed to @fedora-art and @fedora-advisory-board [[GregDeKoenigsberg|Greg DeKoenigsberg]] opined[1] for leaving the ultimate decision to the Art team "I don't suppose we could just defer to the Fedora Art team to make a decision, since we have set them up to be the authoritative voice on precisely these kinds of matters?", opinion backed by a number of other members.


[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00108.html
[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00152.html


In a harsh reply, [[DavidZeuthen|David Zeuthen]], from the Red Hat Desktop Team, attacked[2] the icon set: "the fact that the Fedora leadership allows this art charade to go on and on and on for eons is complete and utter FAIL" and expressed his strong opposition to a vote: "can we please get away from this voting business? It's a disease. Consider what happened if we started voting on what patches should go in tarballs? Or what the dialogs in your desktop looked like? Or what options to use by default. Or what IO scheduler to use in the kernel. IMNSHO, voting is making Fedora turn into something mediocre that I, for one, really don't want to work on, much less rant about. Heck, I'd be running Debian if I wanted something like this[.]" David also expressed his opposition to having a personalized default icon theme in Fedora at all: "It's definitely not about stupid zero-sum games with misunderstood 'value adds' that may have questionable value in the first place."
With the decision chain established, the Art team quickly converged[2] to a final design[3] by [[NicuBuculei]] and its usage guidelines[4] by [[MairinDuffy]].


[2] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-October/msg00072.html
[2] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00199.html


Martin pointed out[3] that Echo is basically an upstream project "Technically the development of Echo Icon Theme is an Upstream job, though done by fedora artists and aiming to be default on Fedora and I'd say we are now as open with our development as gnome's default or kde's default icon themes are" and explained his original question as not  a simple call to vote "voting is the last option when there is no better way on deciding things". He also tried to not vilify voting "there's nothing wrong with voting system, if used with care. Fedora Art isn't about competition but about collaboration. We'd like Fedora to have distinctive look from other distros and we seem to have enough people to do so, for some people it indeed feels like competition and motivates them to work harder - and that's a good thing - however when you accept is as a competition, you're disappointed  when you are not the winner - and it's easier to accept 'defeat' when it's decided by community that by one (wo)man."
[3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Image:Fedora_secondary_logo_drafts_nicubunu_color2.png


[3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-October/msg00073.html
[4] https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/2/29/Fedora_secondary_logo_draft_guidelines.png


[[JesseKeating|Jesse Keating]] returned to the question about the purpose of an original icon set "why is looking different, at the icon level, a good thing?  Does it not just confuse the greater community?". Martin pointed[5] that the situation is not more confusing that the current situation "Well, gnome and kde already look different on that level. Does that confuse greater community?" and he continued arguing for a personalized theme "Does it bring anything to Fedora user? Different, more lively, more 3D-like art. Perhaps wider coverage of Fedora specific stuff (but that does not need to be limited to Echo). Is that a good thing? Seriously, who is to decide that? Definitely not me. I believe Art and Desktop Teams (and various other desktop SIGs when Echo gets selected for other DE's than gnome) together have the right to do so."


[4] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-October/msg00078.html
=== Echo Icon Theme Future ===


[5] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-October/msg00082.html
In a long mail to @fedora-art [[MartinSourada|Martin Sourada]] exposed[1] his pland for the future of the Echo icon set "I'd like to focus
on (nearly) full coverage of Desktop Live Spin, KDE Live Spin and XFCE Live Spin (others as well, but I don't have them all in memory)". He also pointed to some criticism about the set "we are a lot criticized for inconsistencies in the projection we use in echo" and talked about the various perspectives used "strictly speaking we are using 3 different types of projections and we have rules which is used where and we are pretty much
consistent with that", a topic covered also on his blog[2] and proposed a simplification "But on the other side it turns out that having three main types of projections is too much for an icon set and that having two is about the right number."


[[BillNottingham|Bill Nottingham]] calmed the spirits[6] "[...] there's no need to toss around 'grow up' and 'stupid'; we're all adults (or close enough) here, and that's unlikely to bring people around to your point of view" and asked two crucial questions "So, why are we, as a project, interested in working on a large set of never-to-be-upstreamed changes when there is an existing upstream?" and "Why is Nodoka 'ok', and Echo not, in people's opinion?"
[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00229.html


[6] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-October/msg00097.html
[2] http://mso-chronicles.blogspot.com/2008/10/echo-icon-theme-perspective-part-i.html


[[WillWoods|Will Woods]] offered[7] two quick replies "First, Nodoka doesn't drastically change UI elements from their upstream defaults, or from other OSes" and "Echo, on the other hand, significantly changes the look of basic UI elements". He also added a good deal of criticism for the Echo icon set, using input from "his user-interface-designer wife to help work on Echo", pointing to a significant number of flaws, which, for the most part, were acknowledged[8] by Martin "in icon theme it's a tremendous work and a one that will never ends."
Hylke Bons, an Ubuntu developer, weighted[3] againd the isometric perspective in Echo "I'm still not a fan of the isometric view of the bigger icons, i think it causes most of the noise in the icons. Also, I do not see a need for that particular viewpoint", while [[LuyaTshimbalanga|Luya Tshimbalanga]] proposed[4] a simpler perspective for some image sizes "I remember having a discussion with Maírín about setting perspective for
24x24 and less icons. Perhaps applying that illustrated perspectivs to all categories at those sizes might help. Spherical icons will have much
impact."


[7] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-October/msg00100.html
[3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00230.html


[8] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-October/msg00102.html
[4] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00231.html


[[MairinDuffy|Máirín Duffy]] also gave[9] her feedback for the Echo icon theme status "I have put together the following visual critique of Echo from rawhide. Let me preface it by saying it is obvious that Echo has come a long way; it is most noticeable in the applications menus and in some of the desktop-size icons (I really really love the improvements in the computer icon, it looks much cleaner now) but it is still very lacking in quality in areas that affect most applications on the desktop - file / edit menus, toolbars, and the panel. Creating an entire icon theme is no small task." For a better representation, she created a page with a visual outline of a large number of problems[10].


[9] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00133.html
=== Sound themes ===


[10] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Duffy/EchoCritiqueF10
[[NicuBuculei|Nicu Buculei]] relayed[1] to @fedora-art a blog post[2] where [[LennartPottering|Lennart Pottering]] raised a call for XDG sound themes and also expressed his concerns about how the team may have not encouraged a contributor "I am afraid we may have driven away Chris with the lack of feedback when he tried to create one" and a possible conflict with with the Desktop Team agenda "Also, with the Echo experience fresh in mind, I wonder if we create a new set only to get it called a 'charade' and 'if you think what you're doing is 'value add' that makes Fedora look better than the 'competition' you are wrong'."


After the long argument, [[MartinSourada|Martin Sourada]] stepped back[11] from the proposal "I'd very much like to hear Luya's opinion, but I don't feel like supporting Echo for F10 as default much longer..." His co-maintainer, [[LuyaTshimbalanga|Luya Tshimbalanga]] assumed the blame for proposing the theme as a feature, even if it was not ready enough "Blame me for pushing Echo through FESCO. After following suggestion for submitting it to FESCO, I was a bit surprised that icon set was accepted. Were it rejected, we will not have to deal with current issue. In one part we'd withdraw Echo while taking a hit from outside  for once again not include it; in other part we keep, taking a hit for having some incomplete set. That is dilemma which basically means choosing a poison."
[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00235.html


[11] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00135.html
[2] http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/free-sound-themes.html


[12] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00157.html
[[WilliamJonMcCann|William Jon McCann]] replied[3] pointing to the lack of quality of the earlier theme proposal "However well intentioned Chris' effort may have been, the results are not suitable for use in a high quality desktop product.  Have you actually listened to the theme that you reference here?" and likened it to the work on icons "This is the same problem that some of us have with the way the icon theme and background art work has been handled in Fedora.  I personally love to see lots of energy and experimentation going on. But at the end of the day we have to be concerned about our audience and how everything integrates into a coherent product" and wallpapers "I think that the desktop wallpapers we've used by default are a good example of this".
 
[3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00246.html
 
[[MairinDuffy|Mairin Duffy]] felt paronized[4] "I trust that was meant with the best of intentions, so I'm sad to admit I can't help finding this somewhat patronizing, sorry" and likened the open artwork creation with the open code creation "Just as you can't follow a formula like the GNOME HIG and pop out a beautiful, usable interface, you can't follow a formula like the Fedora theme guidelines and pop out a beautiful theme. The magic inbetween that makes something good is design. I'm quite saddened by the fact that you don't seem to believe this team has or is capable of having that magic, but I suppose to relate it to coding as you did in your message, perhaps not everyone felt Linus had the magic or capability to develop the magic necessary to start a real, usable operating system."
 
[4] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00248.html
 
[[PaulFrields|Paul Frields]] defendef[5] the art team "The Artwork team has always been open, in my experience, to criticism
and suggestions about artwork.  They exemplify the way Fedora teams work openly and transparently in a cooperative effort.  And they've
consistently turned out designs that are always solid, and often spectacular, not just for the desktop but for a variety of other uses
too" and "At the end of the day, the Fedora Artwork team has been charged with the responsibility of the look and feel of Fedora.  They're expected to do -- and have done -- that work in a community-friendly way, and people who want to have input into the process should do the same."
 
[5] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00250.html
 
[[NicuBuculei|Nicu Buculei]] showed[6] that open art should be developed in the same way as open software "Yes, I listened to the theme and found it not perfect. But know what? It was NOT supposed to be perfect... the 'release early, release often' mantra in FOSS is exactly that, put your work in the open as soon as possible so other can play with it, comment or contribute. How can the author improve his work without our feedback, knowing which parts are good and which suck?"
 
[6] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00262.html
 
=== Four F's Poster Designs ===
 
[[MarinDuffy|Mairin Duffy]] showed[1] to @fedora-art and @fedora-marketing a number of posters[2] for the new "Four F's" (freedom|friends|features|first) Fedora slogan, posters received with awe by the community,a sentiment probably described[3] best by [[IanWeller|Ian Weller]]: "I saw these and my mouth was gaping open. These are very, very, very, very, very, very cool! Now I want to frame them and put them in my room."
 
 
[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00247.html
 
[2] http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/collateral/fourfs/individual%20posters/
 
[3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2008-October/msg00231.html

Revision as of 15:27, 24 October 2008

Artwork

In this section, we cover the Fedora Artwork Project.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork

Contributing Writer: Nicu Buculei

Fedora Remix Mark

A few weeks ago when the process started, we reported about the request for a secondary trademark design for "Fedora Remix", a process which closed to the decision. On a tread crossed to @fedora-art and @fedora-advisory-board Greg DeKoenigsberg opined[1] for leaving the ultimate decision to the Art team "I don't suppose we could just defer to the Fedora Art team to make a decision, since we have set them up to be the authoritative voice on precisely these kinds of matters?", opinion backed by a number of other members.

[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00152.html

With the decision chain established, the Art team quickly converged[2] to a final design[3] by NicuBuculei and its usage guidelines[4] by MairinDuffy.

[2] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00199.html

[3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Image:Fedora_secondary_logo_drafts_nicubunu_color2.png

[4] https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/2/29/Fedora_secondary_logo_draft_guidelines.png


Echo Icon Theme Future

In a long mail to @fedora-art Martin Sourada exposed[1] his pland for the future of the Echo icon set "I'd like to focus on (nearly) full coverage of Desktop Live Spin, KDE Live Spin and XFCE Live Spin (others as well, but I don't have them all in memory)". He also pointed to some criticism about the set "we are a lot criticized for inconsistencies in the projection we use in echo" and talked about the various perspectives used "strictly speaking we are using 3 different types of projections and we have rules which is used where and we are pretty much consistent with that", a topic covered also on his blog[2] and proposed a simplification "But on the other side it turns out that having three main types of projections is too much for an icon set and that having two is about the right number."

[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00229.html

[2] http://mso-chronicles.blogspot.com/2008/10/echo-icon-theme-perspective-part-i.html

Hylke Bons, an Ubuntu developer, weighted[3] againd the isometric perspective in Echo "I'm still not a fan of the isometric view of the bigger icons, i think it causes most of the noise in the icons. Also, I do not see a need for that particular viewpoint", while Luya Tshimbalanga proposed[4] a simpler perspective for some image sizes "I remember having a discussion with Maírín about setting perspective for 24x24 and less icons. Perhaps applying that illustrated perspectivs to all categories at those sizes might help. Spherical icons will have much impact."

[3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00230.html

[4] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00231.html


Sound themes

Nicu Buculei relayed[1] to @fedora-art a blog post[2] where Lennart Pottering raised a call for XDG sound themes and also expressed his concerns about how the team may have not encouraged a contributor "I am afraid we may have driven away Chris with the lack of feedback when he tried to create one" and a possible conflict with with the Desktop Team agenda "Also, with the Echo experience fresh in mind, I wonder if we create a new set only to get it called a 'charade' and 'if you think what you're doing is 'value add' that makes Fedora look better than the 'competition' you are wrong'."

[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00235.html

[2] http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/free-sound-themes.html

William Jon McCann replied[3] pointing to the lack of quality of the earlier theme proposal "However well intentioned Chris' effort may have been, the results are not suitable for use in a high quality desktop product. Have you actually listened to the theme that you reference here?" and likened it to the work on icons "This is the same problem that some of us have with the way the icon theme and background art work has been handled in Fedora. I personally love to see lots of energy and experimentation going on. But at the end of the day we have to be concerned about our audience and how everything integrates into a coherent product" and wallpapers "I think that the desktop wallpapers we've used by default are a good example of this".

[3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00246.html

Mairin Duffy felt paronized[4] "I trust that was meant with the best of intentions, so I'm sad to admit I can't help finding this somewhat patronizing, sorry" and likened the open artwork creation with the open code creation "Just as you can't follow a formula like the GNOME HIG and pop out a beautiful, usable interface, you can't follow a formula like the Fedora theme guidelines and pop out a beautiful theme. The magic inbetween that makes something good is design. I'm quite saddened by the fact that you don't seem to believe this team has or is capable of having that magic, but I suppose to relate it to coding as you did in your message, perhaps not everyone felt Linus had the magic or capability to develop the magic necessary to start a real, usable operating system."

[4] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00248.html

Paul Frields defendef[5] the art team "The Artwork team has always been open, in my experience, to criticism and suggestions about artwork. They exemplify the way Fedora teams work openly and transparently in a cooperative effort. And they've consistently turned out designs that are always solid, and often spectacular, not just for the desktop but for a variety of other uses too" and "At the end of the day, the Fedora Artwork team has been charged with the responsibility of the look and feel of Fedora. They're expected to do -- and have done -- that work in a community-friendly way, and people who want to have input into the process should do the same."

[5] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00250.html

Nicu Buculei showed[6] that open art should be developed in the same way as open software "Yes, I listened to the theme and found it not perfect. But know what? It was NOT supposed to be perfect... the 'release early, release often' mantra in FOSS is exactly that, put your work in the open as soon as possible so other can play with it, comment or contribute. How can the author improve his work without our feedback, knowing which parts are good and which suck?"

[6] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00262.html

Four F's Poster Designs

Mairin Duffy showed[1] to @fedora-art and @fedora-marketing a number of posters[2] for the new "Four F's" (freedom|friends|features|first) Fedora slogan, posters received with awe by the community,a sentiment probably described[3] best by Ian Weller: "I saw these and my mouth was gaping open. These are very, very, very, very, very, very cool! Now I want to frame them and put them in my room."


[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-October/msg00247.html

[2] http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/collateral/fourfs/individual%20posters/

[3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2008-October/msg00231.html