Meeting:Docs IRC log 20081126

quaid	<meeting>	12:01
* ke4qqq is here		12:02
quaid	ok, regadless of who can be here in real time	12:03
quaid	let's address what is lingering and get a schedule reset	12:03
quaid	DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting	12:03
quaid	ok, I'll be editing the task table as we go	12:04
quaid	first thing is meeting time ...	12:04
quaid	so what happened for those not paying attention, time rolled back after daylight savings in some parts of the world	12:04
quaid	and now 1900 UTC is an earlier time on local clocks, but we all keep trying to be here at the same time on our local clocks	12:05
-!- greg_72 [n=gergoe@94-21-25-252.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #fedora-docs		12:05
quaid	we've always followed UTC and ate the problems in consideratio of being a global project	12:05
quaid	so ... I reckon we just need to rediscipline ourselves to the 'new' time, and need to send out reminders a day in advance	12:06
* quaid holds the mic open for a moment while he does wiki stuff in the bg		12:07
quaid	sorry, network dropped for a moment	12:11
greg_72	as I understand this is a meeting for the docs project right now. In spite of this, may I have a question?	12:11
quaid	greg_72: since we are a bit unorthodox with our meeting today by holding it in this channel, that seems fair -- go ahead	12:11
greg_72	any experts on writing a docbook xml for a man page? my question is: in the file section, which docbook tag should I use for a file name and its description?	12:13
quaid	greg_72: I don't know off-hand, but you can see if anyone lurking sees the question.	12:13
quaid	all: what I'd like to do is schedule *next* meeting to cover:	12:14
quaid	* Lessons learned from F10	12:14
quaid	* Plans for F11	12:14
quaid	hopefully we'll have more people for input	12:14
quaid	as for today, I'm going to use the time productively to create our next few months plans	12:14
quaid	around CMS, git migration, and such	12:15
quaid	greg_72: if the man page stylesheets are using standard DocBook, it would probably be <filename>, not sure about description; have you been digging through the long list of tags on docbook.org?	12:17
* quaid Docs_Project_admin_tasks_for_experienced_contributors&action=edit		12:17
-!- kennepede [n=pkennedy@65.122.67.200] has quit [Remote closed the connection]		12:19
greg_72	quaid: I'm at http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/documentation/reference/html/refsect1.html do not see "filename". I am a newbie in docbook, take a look around	12:20
quaid	greg_72: http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/	12:22
quaid	scroll down to the ". DocBook Element Reference"	12:22
quaid	each of those elements then has a page that shows what it can be a child of, what a parent of, and usage examples	12:22
ke4qqq	so did the publican v. toolchain choice get made?	12:22
greg_72	quaid: thanks	12:23
ke4qqq	obviously (I think) we still did toolchain for F10, right?	12:23
quaid	ke4qqq: strategically, yes, i think so	12:23
quaid	but tactically, we had to pull back again for F10	12:23
quaid	otoh, we now have more expertise, experience, and a better quality of Publican in F10	12:23
ke4qqq	is there a publican session at fudcon yet?	12:23
quaid	but migrating to publican across the board and testing *all* needs is a good task.	12:23
quaid	ooh, don't think so	12:23
quaid	ke4qqq: can I put you on the spot for a moment?	12:24
quaid	as a newer to Docs contributor	12:25
ke4qqq	please	12:25
quaid	ok, so one of the big reasons for going with Publican is that it is an upstream project, wider user base over time, so we can contribute to it but not have to own the entire toolchain.	12:25
ke4qqq	k	12:25
quaid	however, we give up control and NIH stuff we know and such.	12:25
quaid	i.e., swap time tweaking out toolchain in favor of time tweaking on a cantankerous upstream. :)	12:26
quaid	so ...	12:26
quaid	in what you have witnessed the last few months	12:26
quaid	i.e., struggles with fedora-doc-utils and struggles with publican	12:26
quaid	on channel and on mailing list	12:26
quaid	which direction would you recommend? gut instinct, thought, etc.	12:27
ke4qqq	gut instinct says publican	12:27
ke4qqq	because docs are published - still a number of unanswered questions in my mind about it	12:27
* stickster returns from phone		12:27
ke4qqq	but doc-utils seems to require instruction in black magic	12:27
ke4qqq	and incantations that are really long at times	12:27
ke4qqq	so it appears as more of a blackbox....	12:28
ke4qqq	to me at least - granted the source is there, but I didn't have time to	12:28
ke4qqq	go look under the hood over the past few months	12:28
ke4qqq	and I suspect that parts of the toolchain that I didn't touch are even worse	12:28
* stickster agrees with ke4qqq that publican is the right way to go, even if it does a number of silly hacky things.		12:29
stickster	Those will likely be worked out over time	12:29
stickster	especially if we put ours aside and devote any modicum of that time to helping with publican	12:29
stickster	And there's nothing saying we couldn't have a second toolchain project	12:30
ke4qqq	biab	12:30
stickster	But it would be truly secondary, imho.	12:30
* ke4qqq is back		12:32
quaid	yay	12:32
quaid	I think we all concur then	12:32
quaid	stickster: yes, fedora-doc-utils can have a basic toolchain using whatever is on the system, but it is still useful for other reasons	12:33
stickster	certainly	12:33
* quaid adds 'Publican migration' to tasks		12:33
stickster	we just won't concentrate on it for people who want to work on docs in FDP	12:33
quaid	ok	12:35
quaid	that's one of our "before FUDCon tasks" I think	12:35
quaid	then there is the s???	12:36
* quaid back		12:36
quaid	bittorrent ongoing seems to make ssh drop randomly	12:36
* quaid bets it's the Vonage QoS up LAN from him		12:37
quaid	stickster: help me list out what we said we'd work on postF10	12:37
quaid	(other than a lessons learned and F11 planning, for next week)	12:37
quaid	* CMS	12:37
ke4qqq	stickster: will there be a person at fudcon to teach us publican?	12:37
quaid	* quaid tells FDP about plans for growing the project	12:38
quaid	ke4qqq: jsmith, stickster, or I can probably do it	12:38
quaid	jsmith seems to have the most recent experience	12:38
stickster	I'm twisting jsmith-away's arm to be there :-)	12:38
stickster	quaid: * make damn sure important docs have a team behind them, or announce their droppage to the whole project	12:39
stickster	or (c) move them to wiki for prosperity	12:39
stickster	(blecch)	12:39
quaid	ok, what is a reasonable timeline for that?	12:40
stickster	by Dec. 15th, I'd say	12:40
stickster	No April surprises that way.	12:40
* quaid pondering on that		12:41
quaid	maybe a soft drop for 15 Dec, and hard drop after FUDCon, a/k/a "Last Chanceville"	12:41
quaid	?	12:41
ke4qqq	define 'important docs'?	12:42
quaid	um ... all of them?	12:42
ke4qqq	lol ok	12:42
quaid	well, we don't really have an extraneous ones	12:43
ke4qqq	is there a listing of docs we maintain, a canonical list?	12:43
quaid	ah, probably not exactly	12:43
stickster	The front page of the DocsProject had one I believe.	12:44
* quaid looking there now		12:44
quaid	DocsProject#The_Documents	12:44
stickster	ke4qqq: Really, it's the sum of what you see at cvs.fedoraproject.org under "docs" cvsroot, and the release notes and IG.	12:44
quaid	but that's not entirely clear that way	12:44
stickster	and the selinux-guide assuming we're helping murray with that	12:44
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quaid	stickster: here's a question ... does any document with the Fedora logo on it belong in FDP?	12:45
-!- daMaestro [n=jon@fedora/damaestro] has joined #fedora-docs		12:45
stickster	Yes.	12:45
stickster	If it has the Fedora logo the FDP -- assuming one exists -- should be accountable for its accuracy and timeliness.	12:46
quaid	I concur.	12:46
stickster	If the FDP ceases to exist, then so should that guideline, and it means that whoever wants to publish under the Fedora logo is going to need to have some sort of charter to doso.	12:46
stickster	s/doso/do so/	12:46
quaid	so that makes the Fedora SELinux User Guide within our purview	12:46
quaid	there is also all the 'Linux Deployment Guide' content now out there we can draw from	12:47
stickster	I think we should be incented to work on it because (1) it's current, (2) it's been gifted by someone who cared enough to put the time into it, and (3) that person (mdious) actually does hang out here and collaborate with us	12:47
quaid	+1	12:48
* quaid reminds himself that guide needs some splash this release		12:48
quaid	time for me to dust off the ol' blog and stuff	12:48
-!- dbewley1 [n=dlbewley@c-71-197-86-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #fedora-docs		12:49
quaid	hey dbewley1	12:49
quaid	ok, I've got that deadline and stuff in the tasks now	12:50
quaid	is that all the "now that F10 is done" stuff?	12:50
quaid	ok	12:51
dbewley1	greets	12:52
* stickster is torn in several directions right now, sorry		12:52
quaid	s'ok	12:52
quaid	one thing that is great btw ...	12:52
quaid	this release we had 3x the participation	12:53
quaid	cf. the last few releases	12:53
quaid	so our task is keeping and increasing momentum	12:53
quaid	v. 'drag it up from the mud with bootstraps' :)	12:53
* stickster brb, has to close down and ssh in from elsewhere		12:53
quaid	actually, it might be more than 3x, but it's pretty significant in comparison	12:53
-!- stickster is now known as stickster_afk		12:53
quaid	and man ... the bugs are rolling in for the IG and relnotes, that seems like more than usual	12:54
quaid	which is not intended as a negative reflection :)	12:55
quaid	I don't think we have more bugs than usual, just more interest in helping us fix them	12:55
ke4qqq	and thats a good thing	12:56
dbewley1	should we not make any changes to F10 wiki relnotes at this point? Like including things from Common Bugs page?	12:56
quaid	dbewley1: wiki beats are done, all changes should be to the XML	12:57
quaid	dbewley1: good question in that we do want to discuss the plan for the next update of f-r-n package + web update	12:58
quaid	dbewley1: as for common bugs, if there needs to be changes in the relnotes, someone who cares about the bug needs to file a bug report	12:58
dbewley1	quaid: that answers that. :) so edits should go on common bugs and features pages etc for now	12:58
quaid	one of the reasons for the wiki page is that it is easier to update than the relnotes; hopefully those bugs get fixed instead :)	12:58
quaid	dbewley1: yes	12:58
dbewley1	quaid: no prob. just added something to common bugs earlier when someone wanted it on the relnotes	12:58
quaid	we can spin a new web update relatively easily, and there are some open bugs	13:00
quaid	be a good learning experience for anyone to do the fixes in the XML, then I can republish	13:00
ke4qqq	ohhh so would pushing the web updates	13:01
dbewley1	that's a hill i don't have time to climb myself anytime soon :) learn git and docbook etc	13:01
* ke4qqq would like to watch in screen		13:01
quaid	hmm, yeah	13:02
ke4qqq	though how much of that matters if we move to publican?	13:03
quaid	or using 'script' and publishing it out	13:03
quaid	well, good question	13:03
quaid	actually, it all still applies	13:03
quaid	it's the CMS that replaces the web publishing	13:04
ke4qqq	hmmmm ok	13:05
quaid	and ... man, it's some deep black magic again, not sure I want to waste anyone else's braincells :)	13:05
ke4qqq	perhaps it's time better spent learning the CMS	13:06
quaid	yeah	13:07
-!- mhideo [n=mhideo@nat/redhat/x-81ad4e02dde4f83c] has joined #fedora-docs		13:08
quaid	ok, tasks updated for moving forward	13:12
quaid	Docs_Project_admin_tasks_for_experienced_contributors	13:12
* quaid actually wrote 'moving forward' darnit		13:12
-!- kennepede [n=pkennedy@pkennedy.dsl.visi.com] has joined #fedora-docs		13:15
quaid	ok, that's enough for the day :)	13:16
quaid	anything else or shall I close the meeting loop?	13:17
* quaid does a countdown in his head		13:17
quaid	done!	13:18
quaid	</meeting>	13:18

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