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-!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Documentation 11:20
quaid <meeting> 11:20
quaid today I've got irc log and summary again 11:20
quaid ACTION: talk with FAMSCo, FESCo about time changes in room 11:20
quaid \-> quaid 11:20
quaid ACTION stickster to decree something project wide, s'il vous plait 11:20
quaid ok, then, welcome, and ... 11:21
stickster Yeah, done. 11:21
bpepple quaid: did you guys not move for DST? 11:21
quaid bpepple: we did, but FAMSCo didn't 11:21
bpepple ah. 11:21
quaid bpepple: we probably need to have everyone move with DST globally 11:21
quaid at the same time regardless of region 11:21
quaid "Fedora time" 11:21
dwmw2_yoyo 'dst globally' is a bit of a fucked up concept :) 11:21
* quaid does his MC Hammer imitation 11:22
bpepple quaid: yeah, seems reasonable. 11:22
dwmw2_yoyo you want them to move when Europe does, when the US does? when Argentina does? 11:22
jjmcd Pick a county in Indiana 11:22
ke4qqq dwmw2_yoyo: when Fedora does 11:22
bpepple dwmw2_yoyo: probably europe. that's what we tried to do with FESCo. 11:22
quaid dwmw2_yoyo: I haven't researched so I'm doing what's called 'ideation' where we make up shit to see what is a good idea 11:22
-!- notting [n=notting@redhat/notting] has left #fedora-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] 11:22
quaid so i don't know how far off all those countries are 11:22
quaid hence, a decree and such 11:23
* quaid moves on to the Docs agenda now 11:23
quaid 11:23
* ke4qqq thinks it is even more confusing - UTC is relatively simple and desont' change 11:23
quaid yet the reasons 11:23
quaid people pick meeting times 11:23
jjmcd ke4qqq: exactly 11:23
quaid are based on local time events 11:23
dwmw2_yoyo ke4qqq: well, there's a second at the end of this month... 11:23
quaid that move with DST 11:23
quaid ke4qqq: so less confusing, but fewer convience for all 11:24
stickster Right, humans move in local time. 11:24
jjmcd quaid: THere's good and bad to that. If you move not only is it more confusing, but if you have a conflict you always have a conflict. Keep UTC and you have a conflict half the time 11:24
dwmw2_yoyo whereas moving stuff around is much more confusing, and slightly more convenient for some while being _doubly_ inconvenient for others. 11:24
-!- j-rod [] has left #fedora-meeting ["I give up!"] 11:24
quaid shall we take the discussion to fedora-devel-list about this topci? 11:25
* stickster getting ready to do the FAB thing 11:25
dwmw2_yoyo yeah. Meanwhile, can we rewind this channel an hour or so, so that I can attend the FESCo meeting? 11:25
ke4qqq regardless of what the decision is it needs to be something project wide 11:25
quaid stickster: ah, that's the place, thanks 11:25
stickster look for this thread on fedora-advisory-board, yup. 11:26
quaid ok, shall we move on? 11:26
stickster +1 11:26
laubersm +1 11:26
* quaid saw 5 min vaporize off topic while we are short of time today so ... 11:26
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :: Lessons learned from Fedora 10 cycle 11:26
quaid I'm looking for knurd's blog post ... so he doesn't have to say the same stuff here :) 11:27
quaid 11:27
quaid so there are some points there and some I contend 11:28
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knurd quaid, I just watched myself on the second read and wrote things down ;-) 11:29
fozzmoo Here I am. The not-quite-ever-contributing contributor. Hoping to make more of a difference this time around. 11:29
stickster I think the "condensed version" has some merit 11:29
knurd turned out to be a rant; sorry, that wasn#t the initial plan 11:29
quaid understood 11:29
stickster But like all other ideas, they need hands to make them happen 11:29
* ke4qqq likes the single page idea as well. 11:29
quaid oh, to be honest, I ignored the Big Idea part 11:29
stickster That should be easy to do 11:30
quaid in that, without hands, it's an idea 11:30
quaid while others are doable 11:30
jjmcd There is an issue with the level. Bits are boring to the experienced user, others are impenetrable to all but the expert 11:30
quaid yeah, full page, downloadable tarballs of html, etc. 11:30
quaid jjmcd: one attempt this time was to order that somewhat 11:30
quaid so there was general interest up front 11:30
quaid and it worked back to depth and detail and technical level 11:30
stickster We should turn these ideas into a SOP such as the one used by Infra for release 11:30
stickster And stick to that script for the release 11:31
quaid which ideas? 11:31
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stickster single-page HTML, any condensed version people show up to do, etc. 11:31
stickster That way they don't get lost in the shuffle 11:31
stickster We can debate them first, winners can go to the SOP. 11:31
quaid right 11:32
* quaid edits 11:33
quaid yeah, that is a lesson learned bit for me 11:33
quaid too much process stuck in the heads of too few. 11:33
quaid not by intention, of course :) 11:33
stickster quaid: We can collaborate on that page after this meeting if you've time 11:33
* quaid thinks . o O {This ain't the kind of job security I need} 11:33
quaid sure 11:34
* stickster gets the feeling quaid is writing :-) 11:35
quaid yeah, but also ... leaving room 11:35
jjmcd I could have taken some load off Karsten and Paul near the end if I understood the process better and I'm sure others could too 11:35
stickster Right, we are artificially limiting our scalability 11:36
quaid exactly 11:36
stickster It's a priority for me and Karsten to knock that barrier down. 11:36
quaid training during quiet times 11:36
quaid word! 11:36
quaid or, you know, die scaling it 11:36
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ke4qqq are we going to be imparting any of that at fudcon?? 11:37
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ke4qqq or is that too short a timeframe 11:37
quaid yes, no 11:37
quaid Update helping-hand docs quaid, stickster 03 Dec 17 Dec Review, organize, rewrite, simplify, and categorize Docs team helper docs 11:38
* quaid pulling from 11:38
stickster Hm, we'll need to update these dates 11:40
-!- hno [n=hno@pdpc/supporter/active/hno] has left #fedora-meeting [] 11:41
-!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk 11:41
stickster *chirp chirp 11:41
stickster I can try to cut some time on a weeknight or three next week to help with this 11:42
stickster I'm finally coming down off the peak media activity for F10 11:42
* jjmcd thinks stickster likes being a celebrity 11:43
stickster It pays better than being a rock star so far 11:44
jjmcd ;-) 11:44
stickster But I was never that big a rock star :-D 11:44
stickster Did quaid leave us? 11:45
-!- jtibu [] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:45
quaid srry 11:45
quaid wrong channel? 11:45
stickster We can use classroom sessions for Docs work, if appropriate 11:46
stickster 11:46
quaid stickster started it by asking about stuff in the other channel 11:47
-!- rdieter is now known as rdieter_away 11:47
quaid :) 11:47
stickster I thought I was being a good boy by not going OT here! :-D 11:47
quaid no, I thought that was on topic 11:47
stickster Anyhoo... 11:47
quaid it's a task in the process of us updating those docs, or smtgh 11:48
stickster OK, just for sake of meeting thoroughness -- I talked about doing some virtual hackfesting over Christmas. 11:48
quaid ok, what else did we learn this release 11:48
stickster more on my topic later in #fedora-docs. 11:48
quaid yeah, I'll add a task 11:48
stickster We still need a more rigorous schedule for release notes updates via web and RPM 11:49
quaid updates after the release, right? 11:49
stickster right 11:49
stickster We don't need to make them for six months, but we should have one or two updates in the first 30-60 days. 11:49
stickster Since anaconda no longer barfs when you install updates interleaved with the original release, people will see these on their systems more immediately./ 11:50
quaid ok 11:50
quaid let's see ... anything else come to mind today? 11:51
quaid I think I'll have more details pour out of me writing an SOP for each document 11:51
quaid s/pour/bleed/ 11:52
jjmcd I've mentioned the difficulty for new beat writers to see what they need to do, but I don't think that is news 11:52
* stickster wants to seriously think about sweeping all our old DocsProject stuff into Archive somewhere, and making that the impetus to build leaner, meaner, better pages for new contributors. 11:52
quaid stickster: I think the page renaming accomplishes that somewhat 11:53
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* jjmcd is still from Missouri on page renaming 11:53
quaid just that we could use that as a place to send 80% to Archive 11:53
quaid s/place/method/ 11:53
stickster quaid: I'm missing what you're saying. 11:54
stickster Probably the decongestants. 11:54
quaid stickster: seems like more work to discard and start over, but I could be wrong 11:54
quaid stickster: but I see lots of cruft in doing the page renaming 11:54
quaid that I've been pointing to Archive: 11:54
stickster A LOT of cruft. 11:54
quaid yes, under Docs/ as well (sep. topic) 11:55
stickster Many of those pages predate our new wiki, the new FAS, etc.... 11:55
quaid yeah, so, I guess, step one in discarding is to finish the page renaming document 11:55
ke4qqq it almost would be a good idea to have a page owner 11:55
quaid and be the guinea pig first run of the process from the wiki team 11:55
ke4qqq who is responsible for keeping a page up to date 11:55
quaid ooh [Category:Quaid stewards this page]] 11:56
quaid easy way to steward and not lose track 11:56
quaid ke4qqq: sure then 11:56
quaid we can add that in the renaming; there is a column for new categories 11:56
ke4qqq and maybe a Category:unowned please adopt me soon 11:57
quaid jjmcd: which way is renaming losing you? 11:57
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* Sparks likes the "unowned" cat 11:57
jjmcd I'm not convinved that trying to make search work is worth loosing navigtation that does work 11:57
jjmcd But I'm waiting to see 11:58
stickster We have a
This page needs some love
This page should be revised or reconstructed to be more helpful. Problems may include being out of step with current team or project status or process.
stickster Which is not the same as owned, but works fine for unowned IMHO 11:58
quaid jjmcd: the wikibot should fix links 11:58
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quaid jjmcd: and setup page forwards 11:58
stickster Yes, it does. 11:58
jjmcd You can sort of find stuff in a hierarchy, tho. With search you gotta know what to look for 11:59
quaid jjmcd: only if you know the hierarchy 12:00
quaid and only really if the hierarchy is totally standard 12:00
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jjmcd Certainly it is far from perfect 12:00
quaid so e.g. ProjectName/Join worked pretty well, but falls apart after that 12:00
quaid also, categorization is *key* 12:01
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quaid each page must be in a category, and we find stuff by cat 12:01
jjmcd If we're liberal with categories that could help 12:01
jjmcd Only one bug reported against relnotes? I better get posting. 12:01
quaid jjmcd: another reason, look what happens in a category when the pages are named hierarchically 12:02
quaid 12:02
stickster Yup, hierarchy is ugly, because it encourages cliques 12:02
stickster "You must know our standard!" 12:02
quaid you have to visually drop /Docs/DocumentName for each page 12:02
quaid jjmcd: yeah, post bugs; we want to do an update soon 12:02
quaid ok, we are over the line 12:03
quaid timewise 12:03
stickster heh, almost jinx 12:03
* fugolini want to adivice FAmSCo members that FAmSCo meeting is moved in #fedora-ambassadors 12:03
jjmcd Yeah, my Palm keeps telling to get moving 12:03
quaid fugolini: we were going to move over ... 12:03
fugolini ah, ok, absoultely no problems, take your time 12:04
fugolini it's not sure we will have a meeting, since i will not do the roll call 12:04
fugolini call roll, I don't know which is the right form 12:04
quaid well, I think we hit the long tail of the discussion 12:04
quaid you call the roll to get the roll call 12:04
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quaid </meeting> 12:05

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