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* Jeff_S here, still sleepy though 08:00
-!- smooge changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: EPEL Sig meeting -- Meeting rules at -- Init process 08:02
smooge MSG #fedora-devel Meeting ping: Everyone interested in EPEL -- EPEL meeting in #fedora-meeting now! 08:02
smooge MSG #epel Meeting ping: Everyone interested in EPEL -- EPEL meeting in #fedora-meeting now! 08:02
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smooge Hi everybody; who's around for the EPEL meeting? 08:04
smooge .... watches the worlds shortest EPEL meeting occur 08:04
* inode0 comes and is all alone 08:04
smooge sorry inode0 08:05
inode0 so I may have plenty of mike time :) 08:05
* Jeff_S here 08:05
smooge I think the dayolight savings time is killing various humans 08:05
smooge mike time? 08:05
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inode0 time to stand at the mike and talk 08:05
smooge ah ok .. I was thinking of all the other mike's I have known 08:06
smooge they usually are murdersome people 08:06
smooge ok status reports 08:06
-!- smooge changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: EPEL Sig meeting -- Meeting rules at -- Status Reports 08:06
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smooge Build system: We are still on the plague system. Will be until the world shifts somewhere 08:07
smooge Builds pushed: David Gilmore made the push I think for November. We had several CVE's pushed this month for uw-imapd and some other items. 08:08
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smooge Orphans dealt with: Micheal and Michael are working out how to get the broken deps script working 100%. 08:09
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smooge Rebranding: Seems that few people really care about rebranding EPEL to something pronounceable or what image it conveys... so I think this is a dead item. 08:11
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* smooge waits for his walkin to leave 08:12
-!- smooge changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: EPEL SIG Meeting | Free discussion around EPEL 08:12
smooge ok I think we can go over free discussion 08:12
smooge inode0, the mike's all yours.. 08:13
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inode0 I thought EPEL was pronounced ep-el? 08:14
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inode0 more seriously I can volunteer a comment or two about the issue of including layered products in EPEL 08:14
smooge well there is E-pel e-pel ep-el Ep-el 08:15
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smooge what we need for layered products is how to do it a) safely, b) continuely, and c) ... 08:16
inode0 my instincts have always been against doing so as that will make EPEL less friendly to some of the customers it is aimed at, many of whom use some layered products 08:16
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inode0 I've been rethinking that though listening to others who see it differently 08:16
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* nirik is here now 08:17
inode0 in a way, thinking abstractly, it seems to violate the spirit of the don't whack base RHEL packages rule 08:17
smooge I think the big issue is on how to help customers deal with repositories for their systems. I mean to some people everything could be seen as a 'layered' product over what they have. How to help them deal with this 08:17
inode0 but it will likely help a lot more users than it will hinder I think now 08:18
-!- wwoods [n=wwoods@nat/redhat/x-fe8d8098e85eb162] has quit ["new kernel time"] 08:18
inode0 but I also think some accommodation needs to be made for all the major layered products including those that trample on something from base 08:19
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smooge yeah.. I think in some ways I can actually see a perverted logic to the mini-repos that the RHEL-5 was broken into 08:19
smooge so what I am trying to say is "I agree more with you than I did a week or so ago when it was brought up." 08:20
inode0 I'm not a big fan of separate repos if there is another way 08:21
smooge and I think you are saying "you agree with more what I was saying in #rhel" 08:21
smooge the big issue is I don't see a way to do it without seperate repos with yum technology. I guess skvidal would need to come in and let us know what is the right way 08:22
inode0 suppose package X tromps on a Red Hat layered product Y but not on any base RHEL packages 08:22
inode0 I don't really have a concern any more about that going into EPEL proper 08:22
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inode0 I'm still concerned about package Z that tromps on a Red Hat layered product and some base package as well though 08:23
nirik so the change would be from 'no packages that are in RHEL anywhere in EPEL' to 'no packages that are in Base RHEL in EPEL' ? 08:23
smooge actually this is where I would love to see a 'pulp' solution. You take the upstream repos and you have a cool tool to mirror what you need and manage/let you know about breakage. 08:23
smooge nirik, its more like is Red Hat Directory Server RHEL? Is Red Hat IPA RHEL? ... 08:24
nirik any complicated solution is bad, IMHO... most people aren't going to tweak things carefully, they are going to say "hey, foo is in EPEL, let me just install it" 08:24
nirik yeah, what is "base RHEL" anymore... Client and Server? 08:25
smooge Client/Server/Virtual 08:25
smooge well except I think they have a further virtual product.. but I am not sure where genome fits into that 08:26
inode0 as a rhel user I would say anything in a base channel on RHN is base rhel 08:26
nirik so if you have a subscription you get everything? or only some channels? or ? 08:26
smooge you get Client/Server/Virtual 08:26
inode0 you don't get layered products, and you may or may not get what smooge just said 08:27
smooge pretty much a subscription gives you everything in CentOS and the Java rpms 08:27
inode0 some would get those though so they all need to be covered 08:27
smooge and if you get the layered products you might get stuff that completely replaces items in base. 08:27
inode0 that is the really sticky point in my mind 08:28
nirik yeah, messy. ;( 08:29
smooge which is where I would have to say that sort of layered product needs to go in a seperate repo if its going to be offered. I know that the RH-mrt stuff wouldn't go into EPEL because it replaces kernels and stuff 08:29
inode0 I haven't done a survey but I believe spacewalk would whack apache at least (the layered versions do anyway) 08:30
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smooge it would replace apache and thats the problem in that spacewalk is one of the things people keep asking for in EPEL 08:31
inode0 rhel base could be redefined for our purposes though 08:31
* nirik wonders why it replaces apache? 08:31
smooge %base :) 08:31
inode0 rhel base == anything on RHEL installation DVDs that Red Hat layered products don't whack :) 08:32
inode0 nirik: mostly so it has squid and stuff configured I think 08:32
smooge nirik, I think the issue is tha tthe layered groups don't look at needing to back-port stuff. Their idea is that if you are going to use this, well you will want what we tested against. 08:32
smooge so the layered products usually are built against whatever X first had a feature they needed/wanted. 08:33
smooge apache, openldap, nss, etc 08:33
smooge which basically usually means you are almost assured that glibc is going to be the same, but anything else might have changed 08:34
smooge which is where putting layered products into the base of EPEL makes life hard since you could be building alpine and end up pulling in fedora-directory-server 08:35
smooge [not sure that would happen, but I was thinking that might be the nearest one.] 08:35
inode0 well, one suggestion was just a single split point 08:35
smooge ? 08:36
inode0 base EPEL as it now is and a layered-EPEL repo with all upstreams falling into the stomp on layered products and/or base packages 08:36
smooge not sure what a single split point means 08:36
inode0 that way at least users are aware of the slight elevation in risk for the layered products messing something up in base 08:37
smooge I was thinking that myself. Basically if a person wanted to develop something for EPEL the guide would be: If its in centos .src.rpms it has to be developed into a layered sub-project 08:37
smooge or one could go with Release @base -> CREEPINGCRUD-REPO -> {EPEL,EPEL+DS/IPA, EPEL+SPW, etc} 08:39
* nirik has a DB server falling over... back when it's back working. 08:39
smooge ok thanks nim-nim 08:39
smooge s/nim-nim/nirik 08:39
inode0 as a user I'd prefer the isolated repos to be honest, but understand that is more work and it is likely that many layered products will play nice anyway 08:41
inode0 and it might be more confusing to some as well 08:41
inode0 matching up RHDS to FDS and RHN Proxy Server to Spacewalk isn't always obvious 08:42
smooge yeah... that can be uhm interesting at times 08:43
smooge I think the DS one is easier to match up than Spacewalk with RHN :) 08:44
inode0 on the other hand using EPEL+Spacewalk for my satellite server is clean and gives me confidence no other layered stuff can creep in 08:44
smooge hmmm 08:45
inode0 clean from my user perspective, not your EPEL maintainer perspective necessarily 08:46
inode0 would it be that hard to have the release package drop in layered disabled repos? 08:47
smooge so in some ways its going to be working with the various upstreams on how they want to be 'included' or not into offerings. 08:47
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smooge well I need to start winding this down. 08:48
smooge thankyou for your time inode0 08:48
smooge it is good to have users who are not EPEL developers perspectives 08:48
smooge is there anything else you would like to add before I close/reset the meeting? 08:48
-!- sdziallas_ is now known as sdziallas 08:48
* inode0 is done 08:49
smooge thanks. I will get this posted to the the list by end of day 08:50

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