[10:03] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-02-03 -- Init". [10:03] KDE SIG Meeting start.. who's present today? [10:03] Me. :-)[10:04] * SMParrish here[10:04] * jreznik seems to be here, first time from Konversation 4 :) [10:05] * rdieter woos! [10:06] present[10:06] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-02-03 -- KDE-4.2.0 updates status: queued/pending". [10:06] topic: KDE-4.2.0 updates status: queued/pending [10:07] well, not much else to say there, asked on #fedora-devel earlier about eta on the next bodhi push... [10:07] nada [10:08] One thing we could be rolling in would be a fix for the F-9 kde-settings glitch with the KDM background image. [10:08] (If you disable the theme, then you get the background set to a nonexistent image.) [10:08] yes, Kevin_Kofler , mind working on that? [10:08] Not that it's really a KDE 4.2.0 blocker, but as we're updating kde-settings anyway we could roll that in. [10:08] Uh, I don't think I'll have time before Sunday. [10:09] Kevin_Kofler: what does it need to be done? to fix it? [10:10] Fix the file name in the KDM backgroundrc in kde-settings (F-9 branch) to /usr/share/backgrounds/waves/waves-normal-3-night.png [10:10] Then export the branch, build a new kde-settings in F9 from that and edit the update. [10:10] (Version should stay at 4.0 in F9, Release should be bumped.) [10:12] jreznik, could you please take care of it?[10:12] ok [10:12] jreznik, thanks [10:13] anything else 4.2.0-update-related? move on? [10:14] Oh, there are review requests for libfli and libindi now. [10:14] Kevin_Kofler: is someone working on reviews? [10:14] astronomy sig to the rescue for the pkgs, reviewers needed. [10:15] One of us should review these ASAP (unless we can find a second Astronomy SIG guy to do the reviews). (As I said, I won't have time before at least Sunday and I'll be somehow busy then too, so I'd prefer if somebody else did it.)[10:16] Sorry I'm not of much use these days, but I'm burned out from university projects. [10:16] Kevin_Kofler: take some days off, you've earned it. :) [10:17] Kevin_Kofler: uni is top priority [10:17] do you have #bz for review? [10:17] jreznik: they're linked from the kde42 blocker [10:17] * jreznik is just lazy :)[10:18] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=482807 [10:18] Bug 482807: medium, medium, ---, nobody@fedoraproject.org, NEW, Review Request: libfli - Library for FLI CCD Camera & Filter Wheels[10:18] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=483438 [10:18] Bug 483438: medium, medium, ---, nobody@fedoraproject.org, NEW, Review Request: libindi - Instrument Neutral Distributed Interface [10:18] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=482807 [10:18] Bug 482807: medium, medium, ---, nobody@fedoraproject.org, NEW, Review Request: libfli - Library for FLI CCD Camera & Filter Wheels [10:18] oh, circular, fun [10:19] libfli first, libindi BRs it. [10:19] * ltinkl is back [10:19] I don't understand astronomical stuff but I can do more reviews to that plasma related from today... in formal way [10:20] You just have to review the packaging...[10:20] We can't really check that it works without a telescope. [10:20] I can take an easy one if needed :) [10:20] * jreznik is busy on s-c-* tools cleanup but KDE's are more fun for him :) [10:21] pingou: telescope? :) [10:21] Well, I think a webcam can be used to some extent. [10:21] jreznik, not that I see ;/ [10:21] There are drivers for webcams in libindi. [10:21] But you don't test the motor controlling stuff and the like that way, of course. [10:22] But I think we just need to trust that it works and check the packaging. [10:22] Kevin_Kofler: I know but I don't like approve something without chance to try it if it is really working :D but that's for bugzilla is [10:22] Runtime QA is only a SHOULD, and in this case there's a good reason not to test it properly. ;-) [10:23] reminds me of... the vl4/kopete stuff too, we still need that fixed, yes? [10:23] guess we dropped that from the kde42 blocker [10:23] rdieter: I have patch but again - need some monkey to test it :) ltinkl could you build it now with your webcam? [10:24] jreznik, rdieter: sure[10:24] jreznik: If I were you I'd just commit it and let Rawhide/updates-testing users try it out. [10:24] Kevin_Kofler: +1, can't be worse off than it is now [10:24] rdieter: can be worst :) [10:24] bonus points for anything upstreamable [10:25] no webcam at all :) [10:25] jreznik: isn't "no webcam at all" the status-quo? [10:25] rdieter: I'm preparing better upstreamable patch [10:25] Depends on the webcam. [10:25] rdieter: no [10:25] oh, fun. [10:25] some webcams are working, some not [10:25] Some webcams work without conversion, most need at least Bayer decoding. [10:26] Though I guess some drivers still decode Bayer in the kernel.[10:26] ltinkl has one which is not working, so he's good testing subject [10:26] And some webcams have really funky compression schemes. [10:26] and libv4l solves it[10:26] By the way, libindi's webcam driver should also be fixed to use libv4l at some point. [10:26] + allows v4l1 cams in v4l2 apps [10:26] mine doesn't without jreznik's patch [10:26] But that's not a review blocker. [10:26] jreznik, could you please commit the patch and built it in rawhide. if you have the patch? [10:26] libindi has some format conversion code, but not as much as libv4l. [10:26] So it should be using libv4l. [10:27] ok, I note it :) [10:27] than: a scratch build for me would be fine I guess [10:27] ltinkl, rawhide is ok [10:27] ok [10:27] it is really easy patch[10:28] If you have time, you can fix xine-lib and libindi next. [10:28] They both have v4l decoding without libv4l support. [10:28] xine-lib too? oh my. [10:28] first I'd like to prepare upstreamable patch with cmake module for libv4l + let it be optional [10:28] xine-lib can be used to play incoming v4l stuff. [10:29] Mainly useful for TV-like devices. But it can also be used to test your webcam. [10:29] hans did really good work - it's work for sed to port it to v4l[10:29] libv4l [10:29] I'll commit it [10:31] OK, move on now?[10:32] yup [10:33] rdieter: Next topic please. :-) [10:33] alright [10:33] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-02-03 -- acpid: Leave power button to KDE's power-management applet , https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=483417". [10:33] acpid: Leave power button to KDE's power-management applet , https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=483417". [10:34] obvious borkage going on there, with some ideas on how to fix it. [10:34] my colleague asked me today to help him with it... for guidance it's easy [10:34] Bug 483417: low, low, ---, zprikryl@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, Leave power button to KDE's power-management applet [10:34] but for powerdevil which is KDED module it's more funny [10:35] making acpid play nice with powerdevil may be tricky, but I'd venture some dbus queries might do the trick [10:35] isn't there a tool like dcop (kde3) to check if powerdevil is running? [10:35] there is org.kde.powerdevilsystem interface [10:35] qdbus org.kde.powerdevilsystem [10:36] Yeah, that should do the trick. [10:36] maybe just checking if kded4 is running as opensuse do is enough, but it's not 100% [10:36] assuming permissions allow the query [10:36] If qdbus is not there, KDE isn't either. [10:36] rdieter: If not, the permissions need to be fixed. [10:36] but first you have to get x session, no? [10:37] jreznik: that's an overly big hammer... will check true even in other DE's running a kde app, no? [10:37] Hmmm, right, that stuff is in the D-Bus session bus. [10:37] Not the system bus. [10:37] So you need access to the session bus to do that. [10:37] :-( [10:37] maybe consolekit could help to get session, no? [10:38] but checking for kded4 is better than the status quo [10:39] opensuse handles it better in my opinion - they use ConsoleKit to get list of session, in Fedora there's hack to get first running session and that's all[10:40] haven't looked at it all too closely myself, but that sounds better to me too [10:41] But that still doesn't give access to the D-Bus session bus, does it?[10:41] We need to query the session bus to know whether PowerDevil is running in the session. [10:42] Otherwise, checking for kded4 is the best we can do. [10:43] I'm not sure if we can get access to session bus, it may be possible with this approach... [10:43] is kded4 running when some kde app is running in gnome? [10:43] * rdieter thinks so [10:43] jreznik, yes [10:44] it should be possible to query kded4 for running modules [10:44] I don't think it's possible from outside the session. [10:44] The D-Bus session bus is only accessible from stuff started from the session. [10:44] shrug, how about we continue the topic after meeting? [10:44] acpid is really outdated - but required for not gnome/kde desktops/servers :( [10:45] IMHO it should just be disabled entirely. [10:45] The poweroff at least. [10:45] if not done already, let's verify that it's omitted from the kde spin. [10:45] let's move on and leave it to our channel after the meeting [10:45] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-02-03 -- open discussion". [10:46] rdieter: please log it for me I have to leave right after meeting [10:46] that's it for the agenda. [10:46] open floor [10:47] jreznik: will do [10:47] so I'll try it again - flags issue while I'm reviewing package with flags :([10:48] I think we need to complain to fedora-legal-list and/or FESCo to try to get the ban on flags overturned. [10:48] IMHO it makes no sense in Fedora. [10:48] We don't have to worry about losing sales to some countries because we aren't selling it. [10:49] or... how about a modest approach... ping folks to see if it's more of a MUST or SHOULD item, if the latter, use our best judgement [10:50] Kevin_Kofler: it's not about sales - it's about hate between nations :( but this is not right place to solve this "issue"[10:50] rdieter: seems ok to ping someone [10:50] rdieter: I'd rather like to get flags allowed outright. [10:51] Allowing it in some packages and not in others is stupid. [10:51] Then it makes more sense to consistently ban them (even if I disagree with the rationale). [10:52] depends on the reasons.... using flags to refer to locale's is not the best idea... is the rationale used atm. [10:52] jreznik: There are plenty of items banned in some nations. [10:52] Games, crypto etc. [10:52] If we remove everything which is banned in some nation, we don't have much left! [10:53] It's already bad enough that we have to follow US laws (patents, DMCA etc.)! [10:53] Why do we have to follow the laws of every single country on the Planet? [10:53] It doesn't make sense! [10:53] same with MP3 codecs [10:53] [Notify] tibbs is online (irc.freenode.org). [10:53] it's perfectly legal to rip (own) CDs here in .cz [10:54] yet I don't see why Fedora doesn't allow me what I'm entitled for[10:54] not to distract you, but ranting against that in your meeting isn't going to be very productive [10:54] We actually do have CD rippers in Fedora. [10:54] ltinkl: mp3 is patented... sou you can rip it but you have to pay for encoder [10:54] Which brings me to another example: some countries ban ripping CDs even for personal use. [10:54] So do we remove CD ripping from K3b now? [10:55] It doesn't make sense to follow every possible country's law! [10:55] Kevin_Kofler: you're getting a little absurd now. :) [10:55] jwb is right, complain here is crying on bad place [10:55] jreznik, Kevin_Kofler: was my point, forget MP3, you can encode to OGG for example [10:55] The rationale for not shipping the flags is that they're banned in some countries. [10:55] If we follow that consistently, we end up removing at least half of the distro! [10:55] not quite, my interpretation anyway [10:55] jwb: we know that, we're just trying to decide what stance to take in the case of missing flags in KDE [10:55] And we won't have much stuff left once we remove OpenSSL because it's crypto. [10:56] Kevin_Kofler: but not only banned - but some people feels offended by other flags [10:56] Guess what, I don't give a darn. [10:56] People feel offended by a lot of things. [10:56] same discussion happened inside KDE some years ago, KDE decided to stay politically neutral and include the flags[10:56] go with us flag to iran and you will see :) [10:56] just for the record [10:57] People in several countries get offended by the sight of a foot sole, so let's ban GNOME! ^^ [10:57] +1 [10:57] so stop for now - conclusion? write to fedora-devel? fesco? fedora-legal? [10:58] we need to solve this [10:58] ltinkl: interesting... [10:59] if upstream kde knowingly chooses to go this route, I think we should consider following suit, and not hamper/cripple things in a fedora-specific way [11:00] not binding, but I'd like an informal vote, on how everyone feels. yes = restore flags, no = status quo [11:00] rdieter: let me find the (lengthy) discussion in the ML archives [11:00] ltinkl: thanks, that would be helpful [11:00] jreznik: I'd contact the Fedora board since I think they were the ones that made the decision regarding flags. I'm not really sure FESCo would be the right folks to contact, since it isn't really a technical issue.. [11:03] * rdieter votes yes, anyone else? [11:03] yes [11:04] than, Kevin_Kofler, jreznik, SMParrish ? [11:04] Yes, take it up with FPB and yes, I want the flags back! [11:05] * rdieter forgot ltinkl, you too. [11:05] rdieter: not sure - it should be separated in own package at least [11:05] jreznik: nod, optional, but let's leave the technical/implementation details aside for the moment [11:05] rdieter: yes, include it Fedora, as in upstream [11:06] please ask the fedora board [11:06] i actually talked to RH Legal about this [11:06] than: I'm with than [11:06] if it's ok to include flags [11:06] and they have a response, but it is rather elaborate, and I haven't had time to write it up yet [11:06] spot: is there a short/cliffs-notes version? :) [11:07] please remove it temporary before we know [11:07] no, or i would have written it up already. :) [11:07] before the Legal could give us the answer [11:07] spot: thanks, I wasn't aware of any legal issues, I assumed it was just a policy/pc decision [11:07] rdieter: well, it affects export [11:08] craptastic [11:08] china won't accept anything with the taiwanese flag, for example [11:08] umm... since when is fedora "exported"? (or is that a bad/naive question to ask)? [11:08] or tibetan? ;) [11:09] rdieter: it isn't, but RHEL is [11:09] Is the Tibetan flag even included in KDE? [11:09] spot: so what's that have to do with us/fedora ? :) [11:09] (But the Taiwanese flag is, in any case.) [11:10] rdieter: its why RH Legal had advise for us [11:10] its partly legal and partly policy [11:10] i was going to draft a recommendation on handling it for FESCo [11:10] shrug, looks like we can afford to play it safe, and await the details [11:11] we're out of time today anyway, let's close up shop [11:11] KDE SIG Meeting end, thanks everyone.