Mär 17 17:09:50 *	Kevin_Kofler hat das Thema geändert zu: KDE SIG Meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-03-17 - Init
Mär 17 17:10:00 Kevin_Kofler	Time for the KDE SIG Meeting (well, actually 10 minutes late ;-) ).
Mär 17 17:10:06 Kevin_Kofler	So, who's present?
Mär 17 17:10:08 svahl	present
Mär 17 17:10:37 rdieter_	1/2 here
Mär 17 17:10:51 *	jreznik is present
Mär 17 17:11:21 Kevin_Kofler	than: ping
Mär 17 17:11:35 Kevin_Kofler	ltinkl: ping
Mär 17 17:11:46 *	ltinkl is here
Mär 17 17:12:46 Kevin_Kofler	OK, anything to add to the agenda? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-03-17#Agenda
Mär 17 17:13:52 svahl	only if someone has tried it: pre-Beta live image feedback
Mär 17 17:14:37 Kevin_Kofler	Well, I'll add it, we'll figure out quickly if there's no feedback. ;-)
Mär 17 17:14:52 svahl	ok :)
Mär 17 17:15:06 *	Kevin_Kofler hat das Thema geändert zu: KDE SIG Meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-03-17 - pre-Beta live image feedback
Mär 17 17:15:26 Kevin_Kofler	Actually let's start with that as it's the most time-critical item.
Mär 17 17:15:59 Kevin_Kofler	So, is there any feedback for the pre-Beta KDE image yet? I have to admit I haven't gotten around to trying it yet, so from me there's none. :-(
Mär 17 17:17:30 *	jreznik didn't touch it too... it's todo...
Mär 17 17:17:41 rdieter	I tried it.   worked ok.  didn't do all that much though
Mär 17 17:18:23 Kevin_Kofler	I guess that'll be all on this topic. ;-( So let's move on...
Mär 17 17:18:30 *	Kevin_Kofler hat das Thema geändert zu: KDE SIG Meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-03-17 - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=474530 can we put this to rest
Mär 17 17:18:46 Kevin_Kofler	Next topic: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-03-17 - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=474530 - Can we put this to rest?
Mär 17 17:18:52 buggbot	Bug 474530: medium, low, ---, tuxbrewr, ASSIGNED, gpk-update-icon runs in KDE4 session alongside kpackagekit-smart-icon
Mär 17 17:19:23 Kevin_Kofler	I think we should go with the "solution B" I outlined, it's the one which sucks the least.
Mär 17 17:19:39 Kevin_Kofler	I.e. disable gnome-packagekit in KDE from F11 on.
Mär 17 17:19:46 Kevin_Kofler	And mention it in the release notes.
Mär 17 17:20:17 Kevin_Kofler	It's what Richard Hughes (the PackageKit and gnome-packagekit maintainer) favors.
Mär 17 17:20:34 Kevin_Kofler	And it won't break updates for users on current releases.
Mär 17 17:20:42 ltinkl	I'd go with this option as long as KPackageKit provides the same features as gnome-packagekit
Mär 17 17:20:48 ltinkl	which it doesn't unfortunately
Mär 17 17:20:59 rdieter	+1, looks like the least-bad way forward
Mär 17 17:21:03 Kevin_Kofler	ltinkl: What else do you suggest?
Mär 17 17:21:19 Kevin_Kofler	Having to uninstall one of them to avoid both of them trying to run sure isn't a good solution.
Mär 17 17:21:27 Kevin_Kofler	It's fundamentally broken for multi-user deployments.
Mär 17 17:21:42 Kevin_Kofler	Even a family can be "multi-user".
Mär 17 17:21:43 ltinkl	I'm afraid there's no other solution... so we'll have to go with the option B
Mär 17 17:21:48 rdieter	no one *has* to uninstall anything, but it does require manual modification of autosstart items (not friendly either)
Mär 17 17:22:19 Kevin_Kofler	And if people really want to run gnome-packagekit under KDE, they can always do exactly that (manual modification of autosstart items).
Mär 17 17:22:37 rdieter	yup
Mär 17 17:22:40 jreznik	ok, if you really want, you have to do it manually...
Mär 17 17:23:06 svahl	is it true that kpackagekit is still untranslated?
Mär 17 17:23:32 ltinkl	it shouldn't be, there are definitely translations in upstream SVN
Mär 17 17:23:48 *	ltinkl checking
Mär 17 17:24:38 Kevin_Kofler	Maybe the tarball wasn't made with the magic script which collects translations.
Mär 17 17:25:03 ltinkl	exactly
Mär 17 17:25:41 ltinkl	so another question is? will we still ship KPackageKit 0.4.0 in F11 or a newer version?
Mär 17 17:25:55 Kevin_Kofler	So we need to nag upstream into making a valid tarball or use my script to do our own.
Mär 17 17:26:55 ltinkl	forget my question, we already do ship the latest version in F11
Mär 17 17:27:13 Kevin_Kofler	svahl: Do you volunteer for talking to upstream about this issue?
Mär 17 17:27:20 ltinkl	I'll take care of it
Mär 17 17:27:28 Kevin_Kofler	ltinkl: OK
Mär 17 17:27:49 ltinkl	I'll nag them or create a fixed tarball
Mär 17 17:27:50 Kevin_Kofler	You can point them to http://repo.calcforge.org/f9/kde4-tarballs/
Mär 17 17:28:07 Kevin_Kofler	That's a slightly hacked upstream extragear tarballs script.
Mär 17 17:28:20 Kevin_Kofler	I should probably identify the actual fixes and commit them upstream if they aren't in yet.
Mär 17 17:28:49 ltinkl	do so pls
Mär 17 17:29:09 ltinkl	I had to use something similar to package kio_sysinfo but it's feasible
Mär 17 17:29:40 Kevin_Kofler	OK, I'll post to the bug report that we decided to go with "solution B".
Mär 17 17:31:30 Kevin_Kofler	I'll also take care of the release notes.
Mär 17 17:32:14 jreznik	ok
Mär 17 17:32:31 jreznik	you can use concept from feature page
Mär 17 17:32:49 jreznik	and then I should update it with new version
Mär 17 17:33:52 Kevin_Kofler	Let's move on to the next topic.
Mär 17 17:34:06 *	Kevin_Kofler hat das Thema geändert zu: KDE SIG Meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-03-17 - kde-plasma-networkmanagement status
Mär 17 17:34:12 Kevin_Kofler	Next topic: kde-plasma-networkmanagement status.
Mär 17 17:34:41 Kevin_Kofler	So I pushed out a testing update to F9 and F10, but I wasn't able to test it yet.
Mär 17 17:35:05 MathStuf	there's been nothing new (code-wise) in SVN since the last update as of yesterday
Mär 17 17:35:16 rdieter	I've been using it, successfully (for the most part)
Mär 17 17:35:37 Kevin_Kofler	I'm not using NM on the desktop, and for my laptop, the mirror I'm using (which is usually very quick at syncing) hasn't synced the F10 x86_64 updates yet.
Mär 17 17:35:53 MathStuf	works on the desktop
Mär 17 17:35:59 MathStuf	WPA2 failed for me on the laptop
Mär 17 17:36:05 MathStuf	as does 802.1x
Mär 17 17:36:27 MathStuf	and I have yet to be able to get it to connect from clicking a wireless entry in the list
Mär 17 17:36:39 MathStuf	only pre-configured networks
Mär 17 17:36:51 rdieter	my only wrinkle, is that the applet doesn't have anything matching nm-applet's "Enable Networking" option.  For whatever reason, it gets disabled sometimes on suspend/resume cycle on my laptop
Mär 17 17:37:09 ltinkl	rdieter: same prob here :/
Mär 17 17:37:45 MathStuf	i can't test -- no successful recovery from suspend
Mär 17 17:37:54 MathStuf	kernel panics
Mär 17 17:38:04 MathStuf	probably nouveau not doing something right
Mär 17 17:38:26 rdieter	I don't necessarily blame the applet, nm shouldn't be doing that to begin with, and I've been too lazy to poke folks about it (since there was a relatively easy workaround...)
Mär 17 17:38:32 Kevin_Kofler	So what gives? When are we going to make it the default? :-)
Mär 17 17:38:53 Kevin_Kofler	I'm a bit worried about the WPA2 and 802.1x problems.
Mär 17 17:38:55 *	ltinkl is uncertain
Mär 17 17:39:18 jreznik	ltinkl: VPN is working now?
Mär 17 17:39:39 ltinkl	not :/
Mär 17 17:39:48 Kevin_Kofler	It seems not to be ready for the beta. :-(
Mär 17 17:39:54 Kevin_Kofler	And I'm nervous about switching the default later. :-(
Mär 17 17:39:57 ltinkl	jreznik: does it for you?
Mär 17 17:40:00 MathStuf	it is still in playground
Mär 17 17:40:22 jreznik	ltinkl: no... for me it's showstopper :)
Mär 17 17:40:44 Kevin_Kofler	We did that twice with the PackageKit stuff (once from Pirut/Pup to gnome-packagekit and once from gnome-packagekit to KPackageKit), but each time the results were semi-disastrous. :-/
Mär 17 17:41:07 rdieter	isn't opensuse using it by default (on kde)?
Mär 17 17:41:09 Kevin_Kofler	gnome-packagekit had lots of problems even under GNOME, in KDE it also had integration problems.
Mär 17 17:41:27 MathStuf	opensuse's packager is also upstream
Mär 17 17:41:30 Kevin_Kofler	And KPackageKit in F10 installed updates without asking anyone.
Mär 17 17:41:45 ltinkl	like you didn't want them! xD
Mär 17 17:41:47 rdieter	but, I'm hesitant too... no network = major fail , for most folk, so need to be conservative here
Mär 17 17:41:47 Kevin_Kofler	(apparently a KConfig issue in KDE 4.1, I haven't seen this since upgrading to 4.2 anymore)
Mär 17 17:44:07 rdieter	Kevin_Kofler: now that you mention it (here and in the bug), I haven't seen that ever since testing out 4.1.9* stuff
Mär 17 17:44:26 Kevin_Kofler	Seems really fixed in 4.2. :-)
Mär 17 17:44:36 Kevin_Kofler	I closed it as WORKSFORME, for lack of more decisive evidence.
Mär 17 17:45:25 Kevin_Kofler	So what do we do with the NM plasmoid? Rehash this discussion after the beta? What do we require before considering it as a default? Working RH VPN? Working WPA2? Working 802.1x? (I'd say "all of the above"...)
Mär 17 17:45:55 MathStuf	on-the-fly connection of wireless networks as well
Mär 17 17:46:21 Kevin_Kofler	About WPA2, I'm not sure what the issue is, Anne Wilson said on the ML that WPA2 was working for here with the NM plasmoid.
Mär 17 17:46:36 MathStuf	it may be the pre-configuring issue
Mär 17 17:46:37 Kevin_Kofler	So it may be something more specific.
Mär 17 17:47:07 MathStuf	im pretty sure i tried it with it in the "connect automatically" stuff and restarting, but not sure
Mär 17 17:47:14 MathStuf	*exactly
Mär 17 17:48:20 jreznik	if we want nm-plasmoid now, we have to leave nm-applet too...
Mär 17 17:48:35 Kevin_Kofler	We can't.
Mär 17 17:48:43 Kevin_Kofler	We'll have the "2 applets" issue all over again.
Mär 17 17:48:58 MathStuf	they work together, but only if nm-applet is first
Mär 17 17:49:02 Kevin_Kofler	Well, we could provide the plasmoid on the live image, but not show it by default.
Mär 17 17:49:13 MathStuf	the plasmoid will just piggy back
Mär 17 17:49:22 jreznik	that's the problem...
Mär 17 17:49:28 Kevin_Kofler	Plasmoids are not autostarts.
Mär 17 17:49:54 Kevin_Kofler	(But is there some kded4 service too, like for PowerDevil?)
Mär 17 17:50:30 jreznik	hmm, first start nm-applet and if anyone really wants to use nm-plasmoid, he can add it to desktop... if someone knows - hey, it's working for me...
Mär 17 17:50:37 Kevin_Kofler	I'd like to avoid a "2 network managers" issue, like the "2 power managers" one we're having with guidance-power-manager and PowerDevil on updated F10.
Mär 17 17:50:50 Kevin_Kofler	FWIW, is there something we can do about that?
Mär 17 17:51:11 Kevin_Kofler	If you update F10 and don't configure anything manually, you get guidance-power-manager running with UI and PowerDevil running in the background without UI.
Mär 17 17:51:19 Kevin_Kofler	Both want to manage power management.
Mär 17 17:51:39 Kevin_Kofler	The UI for PowerDevil (the battery plasmoid) is hidden, but the service is running anyway.
Mär 17 17:52:57 rdieter	ah, that's unfortunate.  but explains a lot.
Mär 17 17:53:37 rdieter	My naive assumption would be no plasmoid = no service running.  I'd venture that's a lot of users' expectation too
Mär 17 17:54:12 rdieter	any ideas how to tackle that problem?  ...
Mär 17 17:54:14 jreznik	I think it's no plasmoid = no service... and I think it's bad
Mär 17 17:54:27 Kevin_Kofler	jreznik: For NM, yes.
Mär 17 17:54:31 Kevin_Kofler	For PowerDevil, no.
Mär 17 17:54:47 Kevin_Kofler	The service is configured separately in the kded4 services KCM.
Mär 17 17:54:58 ltinkl	well I'm sure you can patch PowerDevil not to start the service automatically
Mär 17 17:55:02 Kevin_Kofler	And in the power management KCM for actual settings.
Mär 17 17:55:15 Kevin_Kofler	We could configure the service to be disabled by default.
Mär 17 17:55:18 jreznik	plasmoid is only "view/controller" - to see what's going on under, service should run independent
Mär 17 17:55:24 Kevin_Kofler	I wonder if "on demand" would work.
Mär 17 17:55:32 Kevin_Kofler	(i.e. have the plasmoid fire it up)
Mär 17 17:55:40 ltinkl	in theory yes :)
Mär 17 17:55:44 rdieter	Kevin_Kofler: that's be one small step in the right direction
Mär 17 17:56:05 rdieter	I can test that out after meeting
Mär 17 17:56:15 Kevin_Kofler	OK
Mär 17 17:56:35 *	Kevin_Kofler hat das Thema geändert zu: KDE SIG Meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-03-17 - F11 release notes
Mär 17 17:56:40 Kevin_Kofler	Last topic: F11 release notes
Mär 17 17:56:55 Kevin_Kofler	Last I checked the beats about KDE were completely empty.
Mär 17 17:57:42 ltinkl	Kevin_Kofler, rdieter: http://websvn.kde.org/*checkout*/branches/KDE/4.2/kdebase/workspace/powerdevil/daemon/powerdevil.desktop?revision=939959&content-type=text%2Fplain
Mär 17 17:57:42 Kevin_Kofler	We should check what parts of the F10 release notes to resurrect (e.g. KDE 3 compatibility? Or do we remove that section as it's not really new?) and write the new parts for KDE 4.
Mär 17 17:58:25 Kevin_Kofler	(KDE 4.2 feature and related stuff)
Mär 17 17:58:53 Kevin_Kofler	I'll take care of it if nobody else does, I've been doing most of the release notes work for the previous releases too and I should have some time now.
Mär 17 17:59:05 jreznik	maybe combination of the old one with feature page should be best
Mär 17 17:59:25 jreznik	Kevin_Kofler: thanks
Mär 17 17:59:31 Kevin_Kofler	http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.html
Mär 17 18:00:36 Kevin_Kofler	Looks like April 2 is the earliest deadline.
Mär 17 18:01:09 *	Kevin_Kofler really hates all these translation freezes - release notes should contain current information.
Mär 17 18:01:28 Kevin_Kofler	I'd rather have current information in English than old one in German or Italian or whatever.
Mär 17 18:01:48 ltinkl	most of the world doesnŧ' speak English, remember that :)
Mär 17 18:02:02 ltinkl	so most of the world doesn't get current information, is that desired?
Mär 17 18:02:15 Kevin_Kofler	Well, right now nobody gets it...
Mär 17 18:02:26 Kevin_Kofler	Often the information is already outdated by the time it gets published.
Mär 17 18:03:14 Kevin_Kofler	And IMHO most people in Fedora's target userbase do understand at least some amount of English.
Mär 17 18:03:21 ltinkl	quite philosophical, all information is outdated the moment you publish it :)
Mär 17 18:03:41 Kevin_Kofler	But whatever, that rant isn't really related to the KDE SIG meeting and we're running out of time. ;-)
Mär 17 18:03:45 *	spot looks around
Mär 17 18:04:04 abadger1999	Hey
Mär 17 18:04:06 Kevin_Kofler	Anything so important as to hold off the fine FPC folks for it? :-)
Mär 17 18:04:06 *	hansg is present (for a change, sorry about that)
Mär 17 18:04:25 Kevin_Kofler	Looks like no, so that's it from KDE SIG. FPC, the room's all yours. ;-)