[20:44] *** than [n=than@p54A0E60D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #fedora-devel [20:47] *** stickster_work is now known as stickster_afk [20:48] has anyone seend kdenetwork merge review somewhere ? [20:49] 195486? [20:50] thanks [20:50] oh dear [20:51] *** Kevin_Kofler [n=Kevin_Ko@chello213047068123.17.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #fedora-devel [20:51] that's completely different from what fedora is shipping right now [20:51] is it? [20:51] updated today...huh. [20:53] *** behdad [n=behdad@CPE000fb55e466d-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving."] [20:53] I've been working on what the kdenetwork spec which fedora shipped today [20:53] hold on [20:54] *** bbrock [i=bbrock@nat/redhat/x-ea70f733afda5592] has quit [Remote closed the connection] [20:54] ChitleshGoorah: poke rdieter [20:54] rdieter: poke poke poke [20:55] http://tux.u-strasbg.fr/~chit/RPMS/kdenetwork.spec [20:55] ping rdieter [20:56] I wonder how we will proceed with kde's merge: whether we are dropping all patches/features of fedora's kde prior to kde-redhat's kde [20:56] something to discuss with rdieter, i guess. [20:58] *** bbrock [i=bbrock@nat/redhat/x-db861820838f4805] has joined #fedora-devel [21:03] here. [21:03] rdieter: have a look above happy [21:03] use what's in the review. (: [21:04] we can sort out the differences later. [21:04] (though, it shouldn't be too much different, other than enabling Extras' BuildReqs) [21:04] this means we will have to wait for a flood of bug reports when F7 kde spin is released [21:05] bug reports like what? [21:06] things that has been fixed before which lack on certain kde-redhat's spec files [21:06] for example [21:06] we can sort out stuff like that post-merge. [21:06] when we're all setup for comaintership. [21:07] we'll likely end up somewhere in between fedora's current offerings and what kde-redhat currently has. [21:08] where is kdenetwork's merge review ? [21:08] since i was working on it, i guess i should help with its review process [21:08] There is none, my prior package review request should suffice. [21:08] http://kde-redhat.unl.edu/apt/kde-redhat/SPECS/kdenetwork.spec [21:08] oops [21:08] there ya go. [21:08] http://tux.u-strasbg.fr/~chit/RPMS/kdenetwork.spec [21:09] step 1: review packages as-is, as posted for review [21:09] step 2: enable modifications, package splitting, etc... [21:09] the latter has an extra kdenetwork-extras as discussed in the wiki [21:09] good, step2 is mostly done then. (: [21:10] lead in to agenda topic #1: encourage kde package/merge reviews. [21:10] This is a prereq for pretty much everything else. Priority 1. [21:11] In particular, merge -> external cvs/buildsys -> comaintainership. [21:11] Else, we all block on than. [21:12] (of whom, I got email from today, yay! He's alive) [21:12] any comments/discusion/questions pertaining to package reviews? [21:13] any did a few lame, quick-n-dirty reviews of qt, arts, kdelibs, PyQt to get the ball rolling. [21:13] than's spec's are pretty good clean already, so that made it easier. [21:14] i'll go into each review process to see where we lost some fedora features during the merge [21:14] ? nothing has been merged yet? [21:14] one thing which bothers me for the kde spin is compiz ! [21:14] Are the KDE packages moving to the Extras infrastructure early or along with all the other packages currently in Core? [21:14] no prob, use beryl. (: [21:15] Keven_Kofler: I hope so, that's the plan. [21:15] Kevin_Kofler: most likely not. [21:15] hehe [21:15] ok, nevermind. [21:15] well, if they can be untwined enough [21:15] rdieter: +++1, its more kde tuned than compiz is right now [21:15] but thats a lot to move. [21:15] Beyrl should not be the default in any official Fedora spin [21:15] holy shit, buttons. [21:16] yeah, but the kde spin will be still-born otherwise. [21:16] If they're going to move together with all the other packages, then what needs to be encouraged is merge reviews in general, not just the ones of KDE packages. [21:16] f13: why then compiz kde related bugs are left opened for more than 2 months ? [21:16] ChitleshGoorah: let's try to stay on-topic, here, please? (: [21:17] oki [21:17] *** dbaron [n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org] has joined #fedora-devel [21:17] Simple fact, we'll go with what works best for *us*, ie, kde. [21:18] I think the default should just be KWin. Those Compiz/Beryl effects are distracting and hurt productivity. And KWin is what upstream defaults to, as does FC6. [21:18] ChitleshGoorah: are they filed upstream, where they really should be? [21:18] Kevin_Kofler: oh absolutely, no way that stuff should be enabled by default. [21:18] have we already have a deadline for the f7 kde t1 release ? [21:18] Another Simple fact, many bugs stay open for what seems like an eternity when they matter to us personally. [21:18] Kevin_Kofler: not to mention that AIGLX still doesn't work for a large majority of users. [21:18] f13: the compiz maintainer's task [21:18] f13: +1 [21:19] Unless they want to install tainted drivers. [21:19] any other quesitons, concerns, comments on package reviews? Else, we'll (try to) move on. [21:20] deadline for the reviews ? [21:20] asap. (: [21:20] sort of [21:20] ChitleshGoorah: just waiting for the Fedora maintainer to do it is not the best use of your time. [21:20] we encourage folks to participate upstream. [21:21] * rdieter nods. [21:21] f13: it doesn't? (aiglx) [21:21] f13: i know, lets talk about later on [21:21] agenda topic #2: kde package splitting. [21:22] notting: not very well on a lot of ati/nvidia chips. [21:22] *** mwringe__ is now known as mwringe_ [21:22] comments? [21:22] make sense? are we craxy/fools? [21:22] rdieter: aiyeeeee! (in regards to the forest of packages back when bero did it.) [21:23] like i said, i have been working on kdenetwork's splitting : http://tux.u-strasbg.fr/~chit/RPMS/kdenetwork.spec [21:23] notting: but now we have more beros! [21:23] soon will be discussing it on #195486 [21:23] rdieter: probably depends on the package. i think kdegames was the one that drove us nuts [21:23] Also, the plan is not to split off every single app, but non-essential apps which most people won't need or want. [21:24] notting: just going (primarily) for 'foo' and 'foo-extras' for each main kde pkg here, not splitting *every* app. [21:24] who else is assigned to other splits ? any one volunteered in the previous meeting ? [21:24] ah, ok. [21:24] ChitleshGoorah: to be decided, post review/merge. [21:25] looks like you're nominated for kdenetwork. [21:25] rdieter summarized his plans here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureFedoraKDE (under "kde* package splitting"). [21:25] rdieter: yes [21:26] about that url, i've seen krita and openoffice written [21:26] well that wouldn't be too huge in size for 1CD ? [21:26] rdieter: much more sane. we had for a while all of kde{network,games,muitimedia,utils,toys} split into one-package-per-app [21:27] notting: I know, package hell, imo. [21:27] notting: whatever floats folks boats, but you'll not catch me willingly doing that. (: [21:28] ChitleshGoorah: those will be (hard) decisions we'll tackle when actually starting to compose spins. [21:29] may end up leaving ooo out of the default install, for example. [21:29] *** pzad [n=peter@213-215-86-71-gaya-mt.gaya.sk] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] [21:29] sounds like it will be that way [21:30] Who said the spit has to fit into 1 CD? [21:30] Kevin_Kofler: live cD ? [21:30] s/spit/spin/ wink [21:30] Kevin_Kofler: I've naively set a goal to make the default install 1 cd worth. [21:31] which naturally may help deriving a liveCD from it. (: [21:31] don't think we'll achieve that, but I can dream. [21:32] any other comments on package splits? [21:32] We could not get a x86_64 KDE live Cd to fit when we tried with kad*schi [21:32] Bob-Laptop: i succeeded for i386 with kadischi happy [21:32] Bob-Laptop: multilib? [21:32] and with ooo [21:33] yes i386 fit fine, not sure what was up with x86_64 we ran out of time [21:33] ok, I'll move on. [21:33] Yeah sorry [21:33] last informal agenda topic #3: app/system configuration defaults [21:34] In short, make the default setup sane. (: [21:34] who will do it ? [21:34] however do we have desktop team behind us ? [21:35] *** jamatos [n=jamatos@87-196-9-187.net.novis.pt] has joined #fedora-devel [21:35] * rdieter chuckles a bit... [21:35] i just package maintainters should be working on this [21:35] I'll do most of this task, though a lot of it will be simply poking app maintainers. [21:36] rdieter: can i convince you to use lipstik for kde theme if i package it happy hihi [21:36] And split out the basic kde setup/configs into a separate .noarch pkg. [21:36] *** steved [i=steved@nat/redhat/x-f4f8c00984572899] has quit ["Leaving"] [21:36] ChitleshGoorah: probably not. We don't want something not tried-and-true for default theming. [21:36] unhappy [21:37] but, using a kiosk-style setup, site/local admins can more easily modify to suit their own tastes. [21:38] The basics of which are inluded in the kde-config package review (to be renamed...) [21:38] renamed to something better, like kde-settings or kde-default-settings [21:39] kde-settings might be good [21:39] i see "kpersonalizer replacement? What exactly do we want? kmail, kwallet? Aaron will write one for us." [21:39] I am sorry for being late in the game. unhappy [21:39] any update on this ? [21:40] interesting pre-set defaults include: konq sidebar customizations, akregator feeds pre-setup, kpdf print preview. [21:40] kpersonalizer is that lame app that runs on first login, asking mostly silly questions pertaining to theme/style. [21:41] then klipper might also be on "remove" list happy [21:41] Aaron offered to write a replacement, to do something actually useful, like asking for email addresses, setting up kwallet. [21:41] *** engwnbie [n=engwnbie@74.12.50.250] has joined #fedora-devel [21:42] ChitleshGoorah> Huh? Klipper is a very useful tool IMHO... [21:42] Kevin_Kofler: +1, you may have to pry klipper from my dying fingers (ok, I don't like it *that* much). [21:42] Kevin_Kofler: that's the first thing i would fire out [21:43] It's so useful that there's at least one GNOME tool which copied the concept. happy [21:44] *** jcda [n=jcda@mail.icesystems.com.au] has joined #fedora-devel [21:44] jamatos: if you have any comments wrt http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureFedoraKDE , jump right in. [21:45] Internet: kasablanca [21:45] konqueror doen't do the same ? we can save space [21:45] *** behdad [n=behdad@63.250.163.171] has joined #fedora-devel [21:45] kasablanca does sftp. [21:46] Konqueror does, too. [21:46] though, I could see that not worth making it part of the default install. [21:46] konq does? I didn't think so. [21:46] skvidal: is there a yum-utils release scheduled? [21:46] There's an sftp ioslave. [21:46] konq can use kasablanca's sftp kioslave. (: [21:47] ImportError: no module named genheader ... getting that from a network install from a devel tree sync'd today [21:47] any clues? [21:47] djflux: anaconda is busted. [21:47] rdieter: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2003-September/017786.html [21:47] Keven_Kofler: I may have to recheck my facts, if you're right, then kasablanca certainly is superfluous. [21:47] looks like it happy [21:47] /usr/lib/kde3/kio_sftp.la [21:47] /usr/lib/kde3/kio_sftp.so [21:47] These are in kdebase. [21:47] djflux: should be fixed tomorrow. Or at least that part of it. [21:47] cool [21:47] djflux: a file was removed that wasn't used anymore, but an import of said file was accidentally left [21:48] gotcha [21:48] thanks [21:48] np [21:49] so if there arent anything left to discuss, i propose to visit the default package list and tag which would go in and out [21:49] My personal favorite as a file manager is Krusader, it has a 2-pane interface like Kasablanca and it can also do FTP and SFTP transfers, but not only. [21:49] *** |_Zoltan| [n=dah@adsl-6-28-139.tys.bellsouth.net] has joined #fedora-devel [21:49] *** |_Zoltan| [n=dah@adsl-6-28-139.tys.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] [21:49] oops, did we leave krusader out? Terrible oversight. [21:49] Feel free to add it to the wiki (else I'll do it later) [21:50] It's already in the list. happy [21:50] "Utilities: kerry krusader yakuake katapult" [21:50] phew. [21:50] and what about the icon set ?? [21:50] *** jamatos_ [n=jamatos@89-180-133-226.net.novis.pt] has joined #fedora-devel [21:50] contenders are (in order): crystalsvg echo tango [21:51] echo could gain points if it were fixed to actually work properly in kde. [21:51] for me, echo isn't ready for kde yet [21:51] (: [21:51] like i pointed in some bug report, we have to define how symbolic links should be done [21:52] rdieter: Are the IRC logs of these two meeting (being) posted somewhere? In the wiki? [21:52] else, we might fork a echo-kde [21:52] that part may geniuinely be a kde bug, it should be able to use (valid) symlinks [21:52] I don't understand why symlinks don't work where a file does. [21:52] me neither [21:52] ChitleshCoorah: I'm not interested in forking, either fix it or don't use it, imo. [21:52] Is something in the KIconLoader explicitly checking for symlinks? [21:53] rdieter: +1 [21:53] Either one of you interested in the detective-work on symlinked icons? [21:53] (though I'm not sure if it's worth it at this point, our plate is otherwise pretty full as-is) [21:53] if i have time left i can [21:54] but i would rather like to see crystal-clear as default (personal opinion) [21:54] pergrinus: IRC log of the first meeting was posted to fedora-devel ml, I'll make sure it (and this) makes it to the KDE SIG wiki. [21:54] rdieter: Thanks. [21:54] Echo, if it actually worked, would have the advantage of consistency across Fedora. [21:55] *** jnettlet [n=jnettlet@c-66-30-226-192.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #fedora-devel [21:55] I think the 2 big(est) issues are symlink usage (may be kde bug), and use of 24x24 vs. 22x22 sized icons. [21:56] nope [21:56] the first one only [21:56] nirik: SysVinit is boring. if you want a fun review, you should look at 226497 happy [21:56] is the latter not a problem? how so? [21:56] The size issue is an age-old KDE vs. GNOME conflict. But both KDE and GNOME can cope with icons of the "wrong" size. [21:57] ok, it just doesn't look as good. ): [21:57] notting: ha. Just picked something mostly at random. wink I'll do some more later tonight... [21:57] I think the biggest issue is the category problem, i.e. Echo using categories KDE doesn't recognize. [21:57] nirik: it's worth it just for "Requires(post): redhat-lsb" [21:58] Echo doesn't load at all without Chitlesh's patch, and the Echo maintainers already said they don't like it. [21:58] notting: eeeew [21:58] Kevin_Kofler: oh, and that, of course. Heaven-forbid we ask folks to follow specs. [21:58] notting: nice... [21:58] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=217832 [21:59] thanks, yeah, that one is pretty much a deal-breaker. [22:00] i thought fedora loves to stick with the freedesktop policies [22:00] well, either it gets fixed, and we consider using it, or.... not. (: [22:00] For the symlink issue: KIconLoader::addExtraDesktopThemes contains a call to readlink, maybe the problem is there? [22:00] http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/kdelibs/kdecore/kiconloader.cpp?rev=601485&view=markup [22:01] nirik: rpmlint tog-pegasus-2.5.2-5.el5.i386.rpm | wc -l == 3495 [22:01] yow. [22:01] that might beat the webmin spec for total number... [22:03] oh god, tog. [22:03] notting: did you see the openib spec? [22:03] Keven_Kofler: that readlink call appears to not be relevant, but my brain hurts a little staring at that code too. [22:03] f13: dear lord [22:04] nirik: ok, if you filter out non-standard-{uid,gid} it drops to only 1664 warnings [22:04] f13: openib 1.0 was quite nice [22:04] it just worked [22:04] yeah, only 250 or so in that webmin spec, but then fun like 'rpm -e webmin --nodeps' in the %preun... after a 'are you sure you want to un-install?' query [22:04] 1.1 is just a pile of shit [22:04] mellanox cannot package software [22:04] *** jamatos [n=jamatos@87-196-9-187.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] [22:04] *** jamatos_ is now known as jamatos [22:05] *** snerd [n=snerdlet@fedora/robk] has joined #fedora-devel [22:05] Another question: Shouldn't we promote the Fedora KDE spin to the KDE community somehow? I'm thinking of posting something on dot.kde.org. [22:06] Kevin_Kofler: yeah, definitely. #kde-promo and aseigo can help there. [22:06] Didn't want to announce anything *too* early, without anything actually produced yet. (: [22:06] I can do it (I also submitted the newsitem for FC6 there), but it would probably sound more professional if it came from an official Fedora Ambassador (like Chitlesh) or from rdieter. [22:07] *** _Zoltan_ [n=dah@adsl-155-123-140.tys.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] [22:07] let's wait until we actually *have* a spin, then we can crow all we want. [22:07] Makes sense. [22:07] anything else? Otherwise, we can end here (for now). [22:08] Kevin_Kofler: for FOSDEM ? during FUDConBrussels ? [22:08] Kevin, btw, can you do me a favor and post the log of the last meeting to the KDE SIG wiki? (if you still have it)? [22:09] I don't have wiki write access. unhappy [22:09] Kevin_Kofler: send it to me then [22:09] hrm, we should be able to do something about that. [22:10] ChitleshGoorah, mind posting this one too, while you're at it? [22:10] rdieter: ok [22:12] thanks, meeting adjourned. review, review, review.