[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:05:45] KDE SIG meeting, start [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:05:53] cool [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:06:20] who's here today (while I pull up the agenda) [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:06:32] present [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:06:36] present [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:06:41] * pembo13 present [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:06:42] here [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:07:13] Present. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:07:17] present [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:07:28] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-23 -- Agenda". [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:07:42] ok, looks like we don't have much of an agenda yet, so that's topic 1: Agenda [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:08:14] what should we discuss today? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:08:24] not sure if the ongoing comps issue is relevant [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:08:27] Echo icon theme [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:09:05] pembo13: comps issue? (krazy2?) [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:09:50] comps.xml, among other things, not making the KDE install group very accessible [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:10:12] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-23 -- Comps". [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:10:30] again, not sure if that's relevant, I know Kevin_Koffler has been persueing it [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:10:37] ok, let's start with Comps, I'm not sure what you'r getting at, can you explain more what you mean? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:00] Kevin_Kofler, pembo13 ? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:03] Folks, this is not relevant for the KDE SIG meeting at all. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:09] ok, sorry [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:15] This is a PackageKit issue, it has to be discussed with PackageKit developers. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:20] ah, ok [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:27] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-23 -- Echo icon theme". [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:33] next topci: echo icon theme [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:47] There's not much we can do about it, except maybe forking kpackagekit and trying to hack around libpackagekit limitations, and I don't think that's a productive solution. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:12:10] do we want to set echo icon theme as default? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:12:11] ok, I'm lame, I said I'd take care of setting kde-settings making echo icon theme default, didn't get round to it yet. sorry. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:12:38] that was last week, not done yet. So, what now, do we still want to try it out? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:13:30] it looks bad with the systemsettings, there're many icons still missing [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:13:32] the blocker for me is that I wanted to try to make a new kde-settings release that pulled sources from fedorahosted, [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:14:04] nod, on the many icons missing part, I was still game for giving fedora-art folks a chance to try to fixup the missing pieces. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:14:24] The problem is that time until F10 is limited. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:14:33] So it'd have to happen quickly. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:14:43] but that requires work on our part to report the missing icons, and on their part to add the icons, of course. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:14:49] And designing new icons takes time. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:15:05] how many icons are missing (+/-) [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:15:08] and I doubt anyone on our side has reported the missing icons yet... am I right? :) [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:16:00] jreznik: for the most obvious ones, in systemsettings anyway, there's at least 5-6 there [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:16:11] right, noone has reported. it's great if someone could make the list of missing icons [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:16:41] task: find/report missing echo icons, anyone up to it? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:16:47] Isn't it one bug for each missing icon, or am I wrong? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:17:38] svahl: good question, that would seem a bit overkill offhand, maybe we (or the person charged with the task) to ask the art folks how best to coordinate reporting stuff like that. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:17:45] rdieter, is it just a matter of installing a theme packing and looking for missing icons? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:17:53] pembo13: pretty much, yeah. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:18:04] svahl: i will say one bug for all missing icons in KDE [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:18:16] pembo13: We only want to do this with echo-icon-theme. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:18:28] rdieter, cool.. point me at the pack, let me know if you want this done against stable ro rawhide, and i'll get it done tonight [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:18:31] There's no way we can hunt for missing KDE 4 icons in all the GNOME icon themes around. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:18:56] pembo13: yum install echo-icon-theme , then set your icon theme in use to be Echo, and go nuts hunting [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:19:15] rdiether, will email my self that task, merci [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:19:16] Well, you can do bluecurve-icon-theme if you get bored. :-) [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:19:21] Maybe we could prepare a kde-settings.rpm and deliver it to willing testers (eg. kde-redhat) to get some wider feedback before rawhide is unlocked againg [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:19:23] -g [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:19:41] svahl: good suggestion, I can probably do that. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:21:23] I should have some time to make a new proper kde-settings today too. I'm sorry my tardiness ended up missing the F10-beta [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:22:25] with that in mind, I really doubt we'll end up keeping it that way, and will revert to oxygen for final release, but it'll be a good exercize anyway. (and get echo fixed a little bit either way) [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:23:08] pembo13: when/if you file any bugs, let us all know, so we can help out tracking the missing bits. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:23:22] rdieter, will do [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:23:32] anything else echo related? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:24:45] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-23 -- phonon-xine for F10-beta". [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:24:58] I just remember the phonon/phonon-backend-xine issue... [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:25:28] I regret to say that I simply removed PulseAudio, KDe works a lot better now [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:25:42] Kevin_Kofler had suggested we could possibly tweak the ks config(s) to add it. svahl, did you hear anything about that? :) [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:25:47] https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/821 [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:26:05] f13 said he'd just add the phonon-backend-xine package to the KDE config. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:26:28] rdieter: sorry, no [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:26:29] ok, cool. It occurred to me, we could also add phonon-backend-xine to comps [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:26:42] That's not really needed. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:26:53] Adding it to the config is just a temporary workaround for the beta. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:26:56] alright, f13's manual addition should work nicely [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:27:06] It will be dragged in by the deps anyway after the beta. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:27:19] but, longer term, I'd prefer the comps solution to hard-coding it via deps. thoughts? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:27:28] We can't just drop the dependency, we can't rely on comps alone, for things due to upgrades. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:27:53] Or rather: ... due to things like upgrades. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:27:54] and comps, once f9 is released, really isn't changable either, so it's less flexible [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:28:02] f10 is released, that is [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:28:18] rdieter: sure it is [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:28:25] f13: oh? ok, neat. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:28:33] rdieter: you can make changes to the f10 comps, it gets used when creating the update repos [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:28:39] so the update repos will have updated group information [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:28:43] doesn't help new installs though [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:29:11] alright, then adding to comps doesn't seem to have that downside, any objections then? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:30:11] f13: what happens if the released comps includes pkg a, and we later remove/change it to b. do folks who do : yum groupinstall foo, still get a? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:30:46] rdieter: probably. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:30:58] when reading multiple group definitions, the conglomerate is used [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:31:02] ok, that's what I was worried about with my "less flexible" comment. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:31:09] rdieter: comps don't get used for upgrades. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:31:23] So removing the dependency and relying on comps only is a bad idea. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:31:36] Kevin_Kofler: that too, but I wasn't going to suggest relying on comps *only*. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:32:22] ok, let's leave it out of comps then. I think that closes this issue, anything else to discuss today? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:32:34] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-23 -- Open Discussion". [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:33:40] anyone know what's up with KPackageKit and KNetworkManager? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:33:48] haven't heard much of late [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:34:17] for anyone who missed my post in #fedora-kde, there are now video recordings from FUDCon on Blip.TV with our KDE 4 presentation http://fudcon2008brno.blip.tv/ [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:34:52] jreznik: great, thanks [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:35:36] pembo13: knetworkmanager is in rawhide, and will (likely) be in F10, kinda sorta works. we (I, dgilmore, foo*) aren't 100% with it's functionality and usability yet. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:35:38] Something tells me we should look for another solution than KPackageKit. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:35:54] KPackageKit is limited by the underlying PackageKit library's limitations. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:36:18] And Richard Hughes makes no secret out of the fact that it is designed for non-technical and/or new users only. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:36:30] that struck me as odd too [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:36:31] Kevin_Kofler: give it time to mature. it'll get better [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:36:40] are you thinkign something like KYum? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:36:43] rdieter: Not with that basic design premise. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:36:59] real powerusers use command line yum anyway. :) [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:37:02] pembo13: KYum is hugely broken and unmaintained. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:37:09] rdieter: Well, I disagree with that. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:37:13] lib for kpackagekit has just been completely re-written [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:37:24] I like using Synaptic for all my package management tasks. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:37:31] Kevin_Kofler wasn't suggesting it specificall [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:37:32] command line is better but sometimes it's better to have GUI to overview... [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:37:46] some plasma applet around? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:38:01] hmm, that might be cool [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:38:10] I've yet to see anything comparable from the yum world, yumex comes close, but not quite, PackageKit now comes close too, but is lacking usability for power users. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:38:11] SMParrish: so... is kpackagekit even in rawhide yet? last I knew, no. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:38:34] SMParrish: if not, any eta? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:38:45] beta 4 is there, the .1 release is do out any day now [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:38:54] s/do/due [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:39:20] excellent. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:39:29] maybe we should start defining use cases we want in a GUi for yum and hope someone takes up the challenge to implement them [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:39:32] pembo13: KYum is unmaintained, badly designed (screen scraping), buggy (corrupts Livna .repo files) and slow (due to running "yum list ..." and screenscraping all the time). [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:39:49] That said, PackageKit is slow at listing too. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:41:28] well, anything else for today? quit early? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:42:01] the switch back to koffice-1.6 has increased the size of the live images a bit: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianVahl/CurrentPackageList [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:42:27] rats, do we need to change/remove anything? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:42:49] i686 is fine (~700 megs), only x86_64 is a bit to big (~705) [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:43:19] svahl: do you have ideas on how to trim that, or do you want/need help or advice? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:43:48] I'd say 705 is well within overburn range. :-) [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:43:55] I wouldn't worry too much for the beta. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:43:56] reminds me of one small question when this topic is done [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:43:58] I'm not sure. We could remove kftpgrabber (~1 meg) and only use dolphin but I don't know if that's enough [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:44:11] another option could be to remove amarok [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:44:43] ok, let's hit the CurrentPackageList after meeting in #fedora-kde, and we can come up with something [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:44:48] Kevin_Kofler: I'm also fine with the oversized x86_64 image for the beta. But for the RC/Final it should fit [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:44:50] pembo13: go ahead. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:44:50] Does using phonon-backend-xine instead of phonon-backend-gstreamer change anything? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:45:07] is there any plan to expand the sound theme in KDE? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:45:18] I.e. is anything else dragging in gstreamer? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:45:19] i noticed that Konversation had no sounds event available for it [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:45:25] Because xine-lib is being dragged in anyway. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:45:29] So now we have both on the image. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:45:52] (I think dragonplayer drags it in, it uses some xine-lib APIs when it detects the Phonon xine-lib backend to work around missing Phonon features.) [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:46:26] pembo13: no plans (here in fedora/kde-sig). that said, konv sound events work for me. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:46:42] Kevin_Kofler: phonon-backend-gstreamer is 212533 bytes due to rpm. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:46:43] pembo13: but maybe that needs kdebase3 to be installed, not sure [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:46:57] svahl: But it drags in all of GStreamer too. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:47:02] rdieter, they work, I just had no sounds to attach the events to, compared to Kopete, which had quite a few [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:47:08] pembo13, rdieter: I guess they are in kdebase3? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:47:14] mhh, ok [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:47:31] possibly [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:47:43] pembo13: install kdebase3, and see if that helps. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:47:59] will do [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:48:33] Hmmm, looks like gstreamer was already being dragged in even before phonon-backend-gstreamer. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:48:36] https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=SebastianVahl/CurrentPackageList&oldid=37592 [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:48:52] I'm not sure what drags it in. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:49:37] So removing phonon-backend-gstreamer won't change much size-wise. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:50:42] let's work on that too, should be rocket-science to deduce where gstreamer is coming from. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:50:49] should *not* be.. anyway [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:51:02] Kevin_Kofler: libcanberra [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:51:16] needs libgstreamer-0.10.so.0 [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:51:34] And what drags in libcanberra? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:51:35] so what pulls in libcanberra? :) [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:51:44] That's the GNOME sound lib, why is it on the KDE spin? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:51:50] pavucontrol and libcanberra-gtk2 [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:52:09] OK, so let's kill pavucontrol again? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:52:09] #@#$#$#$, drop pavucontrol? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:52:17] creepy [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:52:32] I'll stop talking, let Kevin_Kofler continue to read my mind. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:52:37] But what drags in libcanberra-gtk2? Just pavucontrol? Or other GNOME crap too? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:52:53] only pavucontro [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:52:54] l [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:54:05] Then I guess we should drop pavucontrol. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:54:13] It's not essential, just a "nice to have". [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:54:27] +1 [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:54:29] With that and phonon-backend-gstreamer removed, we should have no gstreamer and more room. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:54:37] Kevin_Kofler: and be nice, leave "crap" out of it. I'm sure we all would be offended by any "KDE crap" comments too [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:55:01] s/crap/stuff/ works too. :) [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:55:09] Good point, sorry for that. :-) [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:55:45] Kevin_Kofler, looks like KPacakgekit uses it's own lib [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:55:49] according to the ML [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:55:53] this solution should work nicely tho, for saving space [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:56:10] pembo13: It uses the PK lib, but it has a QPackageKit binding on top of it. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:56:24] It's limited by what the core PK lib allows. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:57:15] ok [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:57:20] alright, we're out of time for today, thanks all [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:57:26] KDE SIG Meeting end [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:57:31] I don't understand the "kpackagekit uses it's own bindings and library." part at all. [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:57:43] It uses the PackageKit library, doesn't it? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:57:45] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule". [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:57:47] SMParrish? [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:58:11] let's take the further discussion back to #fedora-kde , FPC should be landing soon [Di Sep 23 2008] [18:58:30] ok