From Fedora Project Wiki

2007 June 21 FESCo Meeting

Members

Present

  • Brian Pepple (bpepple)
  • Jason Tibbitts (tibbs)
  • Jesse Keating (f13)
  • Toshio Kuratomi (abadger1999)
  • Bill Nottingham (notting)
  • Kevin Fenzi (nirik)
  • Dennis Gilmore (dgilmore)
  • Jeremy Katz (jeremy)
  • Rex Dieter (rdieter)
  • Christian Iseli (c4chris)
  • Warren Togami (warren)
  • Josh Boyer (jwb)

Absent

  • Tom Callaway (spot)

Summary

FPC Static Lib Policy Change Proposal

New Sponsors

  • FESCo approved the sponsor nomination requests for Xavier Lamien and Dominik Mierzejewski.
  • bpepple was upgraded to an admin in the cvsextras group, so that he can handle the account upgrading of new sponsors.

Including binary firmware for the Libertas usb8488

  • FESCo approved the OLPC request to include the binary firmware for the Libertas usb8488.

Bodhi Updates-Testing Autopush

  • FESCo asked for the QA & rel-eng teams to work on a proposal for autopromoting of updates.

Log

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<h1>#fedora-meeting-2007-06-21-14h29.log</h1>
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<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at <a href="http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines">http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines</a> -- Init process</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">bpepple, too late to add an agenda item?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">nope.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">bpepple, I forgot to ask if FESCo likes a few bodhi proposals.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">that sounds fine. how about we talk about that after the OLPC topic?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">ok</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">bpepple, "Bodhi updates-testing Autopush, Anonymous Commenting" from fedora-maintainers</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">cool. I'll add it.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* tibbs here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">FESCo meeting ping -- abadger1999, bpepple, c4chris, dgilmore, f13, jeremy, jwb, notting, rdieter, spot, nirik, tibbs, warren</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* nirik is here. </td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> warren here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">here</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* rdieter here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">dealing with some other stuff.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> spot is on vacation still</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* c4chris is here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">jima</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">vacation? did someone let him out of his cage?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">indeed</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* dgilmore is here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">ok, we can probably get started.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Any objection to this week's report from FPC at <a href="https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-maintainers/2007-June/msg00663.html">https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-maintainers/2007-June/msg00663.html</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">Everyone get a chance to read the FPC proposal?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* notting is here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">yea, no objection here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Basically, we want to stop bugging FESCo when applications link against static libraries when applications have no choice in doing so.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">yeah, I have no objection either.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">That was a nice crap sentence.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* jeremy is here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">+1 from me</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">seems ok</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">The one interesting bit is that we want application owners who do this to get themselves on the CC list for bugs filed against those packages.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> Otherwise they'll have no way of knowing about issues in static libs they link against.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">that makes sense.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">What about embargo cases?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">yea, that's a fine way to implement warning</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">warren: We play in a world that has no embargo cases.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">warren: we don't do embargo in Fedora currently</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">ok, I don't really see any objections, so  think we can move on.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Yes, nothing else from FPC this week.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">cool, thanks tibbs</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- sponsor nominations -- Jochen Schmitt</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* jwb is here now</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">Jochen nominated himself to become a sponsor.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">-1</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* warren abstains</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">0</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">he seems to not understand things as well as he should</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">0</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">I haven't interacted with him too much... it was mentioned that he has a bunch of open unanswered bugs, perhaps he should deal with those and get back to us?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">0</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">On-list discussion wasn't terribly positive.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">actually... -1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">nirik: agreed, a reasonable prereq</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">-1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">yea, let's encourage him to deal with his BZ tickets and come back a bit later for sponsor status</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">several of his recent posts on fedora-maintainers indicates a poor understanding of how fedora works.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">his having problems  because of an out of date common dir this week to me says he i s not ready for being a sponsor</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">I agree that I would like to see him do some more reviews.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">uh-oh. i'll never be a sponsor now if we're looking at open bugs. :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">notting: heh</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">notting: too late  you already should be one</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">dgilmore: actually, i'm not, and i'm not sure i want to be</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">notting, dinosaurs are grandfathered in... =)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">well, common dir is a honest mistake... although he should have figured out that was what it was...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">notting: i said the same thing when i became one</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">sorry, carry on.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">Ok, I see three '-1', and three '0'.  So, I think his sponsor request is denied for now.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">nirik, it seems like he's trying and ramping up participation.  I want to see more in the coming weeks.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">We should provide him with some suggestions as to how he might improve.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">warren: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">warren and tibbs +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">+1 to warrren and tibbs as well</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">None of my experiences with him have been recent so at minimum I'd like to see some recent evidence of good reviews and such.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">nirik: sure tibbs yes we should.  provide guidance to help him become a sponsor at a later date</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">tibbs: so you think we should encourage him to do more review right now to give a better understanding of his knowledge?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I don't think its out of bounds to ask a candidate to provide some info and links to good reviews and such.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">also, if we make the information generic, we can then provide to others who may be interested in becoming sponsors</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">tibbs: sounds good to me.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> ok, we can move on to the next candidate I think.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">so who will bell the cat? :) tibbs: you want to write up soemthing?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">"bell the cat"?  If you mean "be the asshoe", then sure, I'm good at that.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> It comes naturally.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">tibbs: thanks. ;)</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- sponsor nominations -- Xavier Lamien</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">did he self nominate?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I admit to not being familiar with his work.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">I saw one +1 for him, and one -1 on the mailing list.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">I think he's doing ok, but would like to see more... there was one review he approved that used static libs...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">c4chris: yes.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">im not familiar with him at all</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">he's working on a lot of the ocaml stuff now I think...?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">I looked at couple of his reviews, and truthfully would like to see a few more before approving him.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">a bit early, I'd say, so I'd like to wait</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Unfortunately he hasn't done enough reviews to show up on PackageStatus</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> although that bar is getting kind of high these days.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">tibbs: yea, maybe I should raise to 50...</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> of put a limit on the number of packages...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">i haven't done enough reviews to show up if the bar was at 10</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">I'd say ask him to do more reviews and wait a bit...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">I'm ok with him: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">nirik: agreed.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I really think we need to ask folks to at least supply some links.  There are enough contributors that most of us just can't make informed decisions based on experience, and we're all busy enough.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e"><a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/XavierLamien">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/XavierLamien</a> lists quite a few...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Hmm, nice page.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I count 16 that would show up in package status.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> There was a time when that was more than enough for us.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">rdieter: ok, that is pretty convincing</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">+1... while I have had some heated disagreements with him in the past, he's doing some good work, and IIRC he's been helpful for us in a user support capacity for quite a long time.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">tibbs had a point, nominations need to include justifications... usually, that's done by the nominator, but self-nominations should follow suit...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">based on rdieters support and that he seems to have doen a bit of work ill say +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I think his page is sufficient justification for me.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> So +1.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">rdieter: Yeah, I think we need to add more to the nomination page.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">yea it's good enough: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">ok, I believe that's seven '+1', so Xavier is approved.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">I'd prefer to see a bit more, but thats a pretty good spread and looking at some of them they look pretty good... so +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">ok, let's move on to the last sponsor request.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- sponsor nominations -- Dominik Mierzejewski</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">+1 from me</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">Quite a few '+1' on the mailing list.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">+1 here also.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">one possible thing we could ask sponsor nominees is "what people/packages waiting sponsorship would you sponsor?" we have about 55 or so in the queue.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> +1 on Dominik for me.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">Ok, that looks like eight '+1', so Dominik is also now a sponsor.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> who wants to upgrade them?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">who can? :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I can't.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">I think I can, though I'm not 100% sure.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">i cant</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">If you have admin on the cvsextras group then you can.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">I can</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> and I can check if bpepple can</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">jeremy: great, thanks.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">(and if not and we think that he should be able to, I can change that too :-)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">imo, all of FESCo should, but that's just me.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">yeah, I think the fesco chair would be a good one to at least be able to do that...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">jeremy: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">anyhow, shall we move on?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">bpepple is currently not an admin of the cvsextras group.  +1s to upgrade that?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">jeremy: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">+1</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* bpepple will abstain.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">(let's put some more work on his plate :-) )</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">if bpepple doesn't want it, i can do it in the future</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">looks like agreement</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">jwb: I'm fine with doing it.  Shouldn't be very time consuming.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">cool</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">Ok, I think we can move on then.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- OLPC -- include binary firmware for the Libertas usb8488 - <a href="http://people.freedesktop.org/~johnp/libertas-usb8388-firmware.spec">http://people.freedesktop.org/~johnp/libertas-usb8388-firmware.spec</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">spot wanted us to decide on this.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* blizzard looks in</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">well, %description is just wrong.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">notting: heh, indeed</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">where is the license?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">was there a implicit +1 from spot here? or just wanting us to look?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">nirik: yes there was</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">I got the impression he was giving his '+1'.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">jwb: was attached to spot's mail</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">spot said it was almost a carbon-copy of the intel firmware terms/license.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">Isn't this the firmware that was promised to have an open source reimplementation?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">+1 from me</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">jwb: here's a link to the srpm. <a href="http://people.freedesktop.org/~johnp/libertas-usb8388-firmware-5.220.11.p5-1.olpc1.src.rpm">http://people.freedesktop.org/~johnp/libertas-usb8388-firmware-5.220.11.p5-1.olpc1.src.rpm</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">the only difference from existing firmwares is the clause:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> * You may not use or attempt to use this software in conjunction with</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3">   any product that is offered by a third party as a replacement,</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3">   substitute or alternative to a Marvell Product where a Marvell Product</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3">   is defined as a proprietary wireless LAN embedded client solution of</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3">   Marvell or a Marvell Affiliate.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Does that bother anyone else?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">certainly rubs me the wrong way</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">it's sort of irrelevant</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> in that it wouldn't work even if people tried</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I don't have any clue as to what Marvell could in the future decide what a replacement is.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">notting: what happens if we don't approve this?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40"><a href="http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/286/">http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/286/</a> and various other press accounts indicate that there was a PROMISE of an open firmware replacement</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">but... since our firmware rules/policy only require redistributability...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">What if there's a clone of the chipset in the future?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">abadger1999: then we couldn't use *this* firmware for this</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">oh wait, not this article...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">notting, "we" being Fedora right?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> notting, not OLPC</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">jwb: it's a use restriction, so it's actually the end user</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> not us</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> blizzard: can you go beat marvell about the head?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">notting, no, what i'm asking is if FESCo NAKs this, it doesn't really effect OLPC much does it?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">fyi, the rules for firmware: <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#head-adf31c383612aac313719f7b4f8167b7dcf245d2">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#head-adf31c383612aac313719f7b4f8167b7dcf245d2</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">notting, because they can still include it?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">notting, there was already a huge media circus about this</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">jwb: they cant because OLPC is moving into our buildsystem and infrastructure</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">jwb: probably. i'm just saying that since it's a use restriction, it's actually hard for 'fedora' to violate it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">notting: Your point makes sense.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">is this a device thats available in machines running fedora? or only olpc?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">dgilmore, this is firmware, not something that is builtt</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">olpc (for now)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">notting: I wrote that license</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> notting: and passed it by legal</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">blizzard: can you take that clause out? :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">notting: they thought it was fine</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Our rules just require redistributability, and this seems to satisfy our requirements.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">notting: no, I can't</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">jwb: its going to all be hosted in our cvs and the binary rpm built in koji</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">+1 (but I don't like that restricted use clause).</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">tibbs: agreed, as long as it's something thats available on machines running fedora... ie, not a olpc specific peice of hardware.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">dgilmore, no, what i'm saying is if we NAK it, OLPC can install it themselves anyway</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">it's also basically the same as the 3945 license</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> fwiw</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">it doesn't matter</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">it does matter</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">blizzard, wasn't there some promise to reimplement this as open later?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">blizzard, no, not you</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">blizzard, my argument with dgilmore doesn't matter</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">jwb: the could technically but it would have to live outside of the rest of their tree</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">The question is, will we need to decide which end-user restrictions are permissible?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> What if it said that you could use it only in a noncommercial setting?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">jwb: :)  i guess it doesnt</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">it fits the guidelines, guys - it's redisributable</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">"without restriction"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">and is fine for commericial and non-commercial</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* bpepple almost think think this should go to the FPB since it's a more political topic.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">oh, but that's use</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">blizzard: it's exactly the same as the 3945 license... except for this clause</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">It does fit the guidelines... I still don't like that clause.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">bpepple: +1</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* blizzard rolls his eyes</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">i don't think it needs to go to FPB</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> it fits the guidelines as they are written today</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">I'd give it +1 on the basis of our existing policy but would like to ask the Board to make a statement on end-user restrictions.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">like</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> don't decompile this?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> no reverse engineering?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">no discrimination on who can use it or how.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">ok, I'm not sure where we are on this, so could I see a quick vote on this proposal?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">blizzard, why are you not answering the question?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">blizzard: What if it said, only for use on computers with Intel CPUs.  There is a line that should be drawn somewhere.  I don't think FESCo is the group to make that decision.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">warren: what is the question?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">blizzard, there was some promise to reimplement this as open.  What happened to that?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">So like I said, +1 to allowing but the Board should clarify where to draw the end-user restriction line.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">warren: I don't know of a promise, but there has been a lot of talk about it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">blizzard, what happened to the talk?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">i don't think talk or promises matter at the moment</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">warren: I don't know, I'm not driving it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">I'd go teh same as abadger1999</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">+1 approve</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">abadger1999: yeah, that's fine</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">+1 abadger1999</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">+1 to abadger1999's suggestion.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">actually</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">+1, but I wouldn't mind the FPC weighing in on this also.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">that clause is fairly equivalent to a clause in the *old* intel firmwares</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">s/FPC/FPB/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">in that they say 'licensed for use only in conjunction with Intel component products.'</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> so this is the inverse</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">notting: yeah, equiv</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">notting, they explicitly define the restriction to a specific class of hardware</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">a positive right instead of a restriction</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">"...where a Marvell Product</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3">   is defined as a proprietary wireless LAN embedded client solution of</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3">   Marvell or a Marvell Affiliate."</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">blizzard: yeah, it would just read much simpler if they say 'licensed only for use with Marvell products'</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">Marvell makes other products</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> i doubt they want you to use this firmware on those</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">and I love that it says "this software" when we're trying to tell people that firmware isn't software.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">lennert</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">notting: then someone could buy a marvell arm cpu and be licensed to use the firmware on that :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">lennert: let's see them try!</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> f13: it is software ,it's just destined for a different cpu</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">which goes back to my original point that none of this really matters</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> because it's not really technically feasible</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">so, we have 8 +1s</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">lennert</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">well, it is.  marvell wireless chips _are_ arm cpus.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">ready to move on?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">yeah +1 you ahve 9 now</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">jeremy, ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">is spot not here?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">nope</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">jwb: he's on vacation</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">ok</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Sorry, got called away.  In case it wasn't clear from my earlier comment, +1.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">Ok, so we've given our blessing to including the firmware.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> Moving on then.....</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- Bodhi - Bodhi updates-testing Autopush, Anonymous Commenting - warren</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">warren: you want to lead this?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">There seems to be some disagreement on the proposals in <a href="https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-maintainers/2007-June/msg00173.html">https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-maintainers/2007-June/msg00173.html</a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> but the decision of FESCo matters more than random opinions</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">only slightly</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">What is the purpose of updates-testing?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* blizzard heads out for a bit</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">abadger1999, is that like a metaphysical question?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">to allow wider testing of a package update.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">So perhaps we may not ratify anything now, but I'd like to hear the feelings these points.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">jwb: Apparently :-)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">well i say that with a couple of +1's a package should be allowed to go to updates</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">we already approved that</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> er wait</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> n/m</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">it just seems that caillon and I disagree as to the purpose of updates-testing and therefore we disagree with how it should operate.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">warren, i don't like autopush</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">warren: this is about auto pushing the update after 7 days correct?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">auto-push after a configurable delay that the submitter can set</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">jwb: with this proposal you could turn it off for your packages...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">warren: ah, ok.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">warren, or rather, i don't like having a default of not "never"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">submitter can set NEVER or any number of days</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">i'd rather it be the reverse</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">it would make things less consistant however from maintainer to maintainer.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">jwb: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I think that its fundamental that it be easy to submit bugs from the pending update page and that it be easy to click a button that will prevent the push of an update.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">default to NEVER, maintainer can change</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">i like a couple of weeks</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">Yes, another part of the proposal is to make it easy for others to stop an updates-testing package from going to updates</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Other than that I think a week is enough time.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">which would override the timeout</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">jwb: I'd rather see a week</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> abadger1999 abadger1991</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">abadger199: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">why</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">The problem is that some folks come from extras culture,</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> where when you build, everyone sees it the next day.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">If we let the maintainers change the timeout, then what do they change them to?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> Will they change them to 1 week?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> Or will they simply change them to "now"?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">a timeout would also allow some automation to happen</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">"now" should require explanation.  Or does releng not want to deal with the overhead that would add?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">Having a default of a week makes it so the easy thing to do is to push it and have it get some testing.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">one less manual step for maintainers, while also encouraging updates-testing to happen.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">Well, what about 1 hour; 1 day; etc?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> What should require an explanation and what shouldn't?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">abadger1991, to be clear, this isn't a push</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">The maintainer may push sooner at their own choosing, but they need a reason.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">abadger1991, it's a promotion</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> because rel-eng does the pushing</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">perhaps we should get input from wwoods here? (who is off at the beach I think)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">I like the proposal, big +1 from me.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">+1 here also.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">a week (by default) seems fine to me</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* jwb wonders why we have two abadger199xs</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">anyway, it's a promotion.  it might get promoted in 7 days, and sit there for another 2</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">jwb: 2 votes? ;)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">twins?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">jwb: Right.  From updates-testing repo to the updates queue (where rel-eng will choose to push or not)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">the proposal seems ok to me for now, we can always adjust it later... +1</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* abadger1999 is at the library and just figured a way to get IRC on my laptop.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">here's my concern</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">likely story, doppleganger! :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">too much moonshine...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">jima</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">or not enough</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">between a) a separate comment space outside of bugzilla b) a need for captchas? ew. c) none of this stuff is implemented yet... i'm a minor -1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I think it needs to be wikiized as general updates workflow proposal and let various teams/folks chew on it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">someone puts foo-1.1.3 into updates-testing.  it's totally fundementally broken.  it gets no feedback and no testing, rel-eng has no flags either way good or bad.  it gets promoted and pushed</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">let rel-eng review/discuss, let QA review/discuss, etc...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">f13: that would be fine... would possibly get more buy in from community that likes/doesn't like parts of the proposal.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">wow, my ssl cert just expired</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">jwb: From an extras standpoint, that is no different than what we have always had.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">jwb: As opposed to someone puts foo-1.1.3 in updates-testing, it's totally fundamentally broken.  It gets no feedback and no testing.  After a week the maintainer promotes it and releng pushes?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">tibbs, that doesn't make it better or correct</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> abadger1999, yes.  because a maintainer did it explicitly and not a machine</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">jwb: I'm only offering a possible explanation as to why you are not seeing more agreement.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> jwb: Frankly, I disagree with you that it's a problem.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">jwb: I don't buy that a human making a mistake is better than a machine making a mistake.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">abadger1999, humans can learn</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I mean, we had a core package go to updates-testing, get bad comments and still get pushed to the tune of broken systems.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">How can they learn what?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">jwb: we can change the default setting later, when we have learnt a bit more</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">ie: what is the human going to do differently next time that they wouldn't do differently in each scenario.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">the only concern I have with adjustable by maintainer is the confusion... ie, packageA goes in 1 day, everything else in a week, and packageC never...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">abadger1999, you can tell a maintainer "look, you explicitly pushed a broken package out.  could you test it a bit more next time or wait longer for comments?"</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> abadger1999, if they stick it in updates-testing and it gets autopushed, it's not really their fault</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">jwb: Yes it is.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">no it's fucking not</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> updates-testing is to _test_ stuff</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> where else should they go stick it?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">jwb: in that case, user should be smart enough to set auto-push:never</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">But you don't know if it's broken when you stick it in.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> You haven't seen any problems on your machine.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">right...  which is why you put it in updates-testing</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">tibbs, the updates system didn't yet have the "STOP!!!!" button</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">So I'm really failing to see how the maintainer will make different decisions by pushing it to updates-testing and not seeing feedback and clicking a button or pushing it to updates-testing and not seeing feedback and letting it autopush.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> Lack of feedback that something is broken == not knowing it's broken.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* c4chris is pretty much in the dark too</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* bpepple agrees with abadger1999.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* rdieter sees we're running late, can we vote, or postpone issue for more discussion?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">we can vote.  it's fine</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">+1 to proposal.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* lmacken just got out of class</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">but meta-issues aside, our infrastructure isn't mature enough for autopromote anyway.  -1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I'm not going to vote on it until it's seen some time in QA and rel-eng</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I'm +1ing to get it into the wiki to generate said feedback though and making sure it's on the agenda for qa/rel-eng</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">I personally like the proposal, but -1 for now... it needs more discussion and input</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">yea, let's hear what QA and rel-eng have to say first</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">-1 for now as well</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">I'll +1 if the meaning is "Feel free to implement it this way"... rather than "You must implement this way".</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">f13: right, the task is ultimately in the hands of those who implement it. :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #b15db1">lmacken</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #b15db1">:)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">this is just a policy decision on whether or not FESCo supports the ideas in principle.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">rdieter: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">rdieter: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">ideas +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">i'm confused now</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> having some form of autopromote i general?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> s/i/in</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I think warren wants FESCo to vote on having some form of automated promotion.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">general idea: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">jwb: yes.  the exact details we can work out.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">qa/releng is free to tell us -ECANTIMPLEMENTWHATTHE?#$#$WEREYOUTHINKING</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">rdieter, that's an odd way to approach it</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> if we're voting, qa/releng should be implementing what we vote on</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* nirik is also confused. Can't we table this and have releng/qa/community work it over and then bring it back to vote on it?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">it's a political decision.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">if we want their input, we shouldn't be voting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">jwb: agreed,</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">FESCo would like QA/rel-eng to investigate and propose a method of autopromoting updates</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">f13: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">f13: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">f13: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">f13: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13, +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">f13: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #b15db1">lmacken</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #b15db1">uhh. investigate implementations ?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* lmacken is confused</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">lmacken, no investigate method</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* rdieter needs to eat... lunch is calling.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">lmacken, we'll work it out :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">we're setting forth a preliminary objective to investigate possible implementations of a mission</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">i like this delay because it gives me more time to see if i have my head up my ass or not</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">notting: that's the spirit!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #b15db1">lmacken</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #b15db1">i'm still confused. (sorry, i haven't caught up with backlog yet).. but i could implement auto-promoting updates in ab out 10 minutes.. what "methods" do we need to investigate ?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* c4chris is hungry too...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">lmacken, the policy on whether we want that or not</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">ok, I count six '+1', anyone else voting on it?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">lmacken, the pros/cons</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> ets</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #b15db1">lmacken</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #b15db1">ok.. so method still == policy ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">er, etc</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> lmacken, mostly yeah</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #b15db1">lmacken</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #b15db1">gotcha</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* notting wonders if we need a 'fesco meetings a) always run over b) always push agenda items to the next week'  discussion</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jwb</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">lmacken, but it's good to know your uber skills can make it happen quickly ;)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">notting: yeah, it's getting late.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">did we even make it through the defined agenda?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">notting: pretty much.  this last item was tacked on just before the meeting.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">hmm, we still have less the half of FESCo giving '+1' to f13's proposal.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">bpepple: well, my "proposal" was just a rewording on what we've already voted on twice.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">I thought I +1''d it before, but +1 for me now.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">ok, that gives us seven '+1' so we can consider this approved.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> let's wrap this up, since it's getting late.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">and dgilmore +1'd it also above</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Yes, I have to receive my performance evaluation in about five minutes.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">yea, wrap++ for me</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* bpepple will end the meeting in 60</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* notting has multiple other things, but.. .eh.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">Depending on how it goes, I'll ask for a paid drip to fudcon.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> trip, even</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* bpepple will end the meeting in 30</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">notting: anything we could discuss on the mailing lists?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* bpepple will end the meeting in 15</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">probably. but still, i think we have a general 'not enough time to discuss everything needed' problem</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">notting: put things on the agenda ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">notting: put that topic on the agenda, and we'll see when we can get to it.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">c4chris: how does adding more items to an agenda that already runs 30 minutes over help?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* f13 ducks</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">30 minutes/~</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">notting: now we have no idea what you wanna talk about</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">oh wait, 30 minutes over, not over 30 minutes.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">notting: well, we could try handling things like the sponsor noms on the mailing list.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">notting: if it was on the agenda, maybe we can think it over a bit</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">heh, no problem</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">notting: and then the discussion can proceed a bit faster</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">-- MARK -- Meeting End</td></tr>
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