From Fedora Project Wiki
Nov 13 08:15:38 <f13> *yawn* time to start the day
Nov 13 08:23:35 <glezos> f13, it's a nice day to start, no? :)
Nov 13 08:23:45 <glezos> s/nice/fun
Nov 13 08:37:47 <glezos> off to work
Nov 13 08:37:49 <-- glezos has quit ("Leaving")
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Nov 13 09:51:58 --> smooge (n=smooge@pdpc/supporter/bronze/smooge) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 09:54:31 <jwb> f13, starting soon?
Nov 13 09:55:40 * smooge has come to the Cabal meeting representing the Gnomes of Sandia
Nov 13 09:56:26 * thl googles for Gnomes of Sandia
Nov 13 09:57:14 * jwb represents nobody
Nov 13 09:57:56 <smooge> we are an offshoot of the Gnomes of Zurich.. but had a falling out of the great GPL war of 1994
Nov 13 09:58:08 <Lovechild> jwb: then so long as nobody informs the community we'll be fine..
Nov 13 09:58:22 <jwb> :)
Nov 13 09:58:54 <f13> jwb: we just got wireless going
Nov 13 09:59:02 <f13> waiting on a few more people to show up.
Nov 13 09:59:25 <jwb> f13, bah. wireless is for mortals. real men just send brain waves directly to freenode
Nov 13 09:59:32 --> gregdek (n=gdk@static-71-243-117-136.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 09:59:33 <smooge> well other than Rex.. everyone should be from the same timezone.. :)
Nov 13 10:00:03 --- gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: Setting the Agenda
Nov 13 10:00:11 <gregdek> Howdy do, folks.
Nov 13 10:00:17 <greendisease> hey fools
Nov 13 10:00:22 <jwb> gregdek, so are you "the voice"?
Nov 13 10:00:25 <gregdek> As everyone gets started, /me wanders off to the can. :)
Nov 13 10:00:26 <Lovechild> howdy ho gregerino
Nov 13 10:00:29 <gregdek> I am the voice, yes.
Nov 13 10:00:32 <jwb> k
Nov 13 10:00:38 * quaid hip-hop handshake and hug to gregdek
Nov 13 10:01:49 <quaid> greendisease: howdy dude
Nov 13 10:01:53 <f13> gregdek will be the first voice
Nov 13 10:01:59 <-- abostrom has quit ("Leaving")
Nov 13 10:02:01 <greendisease> quaid: w0ow, youre up early
Nov 13 10:02:01 <f13> which means I'll not pay attention for a while.
Nov 13 10:02:21 <quaid> greendisease: weekly Enterprise Marketing meeting ... 9:30 a EST *ugh*
Nov 13 10:03:32 --> abostrom (n=abo@c-664ae455.029-135-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 10:05:12 <gregdek> quaid: Yo, whassup, my brutha.
Nov 13 10:05:17 <gregdek> All righty.
Nov 13 10:07:16 <gregdek> So today is probably going to be around the issues regarding the opening of infrastructure.
Nov 13 10:09:05 <gregdek> I hope and presume that someone is logging the channel, since this is where I'm taking notes for the day. ;-)
Nov 13 10:09:55 <gregdek> Max speaks... "this is the time to do a lot of the things with Fedora that we've been talking about for the last few months. We've got management focus to really kick some ass right now."
Nov 13 10:10:07 <jwb> full logs can be made available for only 3 payments of $15.95. if you act now, we'll throw in the logs of #fedora-extras for free!
Nov 13 10:10:09 <jwb> ;)
Nov 13 10:10:41 <danpb> i'll do logs for only $14.95 & throw in a free pony !
Nov 13 10:10:47 --> spot (i=spot@redhat/spot) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 10:10:57 <gregdek> "...we've also got the possibility to be a bit subversive. We spend a lot of time trying to get people on-board internally with the Fedora plan, but the times comes when, if people don't get on board, we route around them. That's where we are with Fedora right now."
Nov 13 10:11:23 --> jbowes (i=jbowes@nat/redhat/x-c0c2db20dd244657) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 10:11:32 <gregdek> "...we've been talking about a world in which anyone can contribute to Core, or 'opening Core' or whatever, and anyone can participate. That's what we're trying to get to."
Nov 13 10:11:47 <gregdek> (General nodding and agreement in the room.)
Nov 13 10:12:39 <spot> is there an audio stream or a dialin?
Nov 13 10:12:41 <gregdek> Jeremy speaks: "So let me play devil's advocate: what does opening Core gain us?"
Nov 13 10:13:03 <jwb> spot, no. i asked that already
Nov 13 10:13:06 <gregdek> spot: There is not, sorry. But if you want to throw something in, let me know. I know I'm a poor medium here.
Nov 13 10:13:22 <spot> KDE is the most obvious "why open core" answer
Nov 13 10:13:38 <gregdek> Max: "...what we gain is actually being a community distribution, run in a community way."
Nov 13 10:13:48 <gregdek> Jesse: "Removing roadblocks to community contribution."
Nov 13 10:13:54 * gregdek mentions Spot's comment.
Nov 13 10:14:13 <gregdek> Jesse: "When Red Hat *maybe* cares about 500 packages at a time, max."
Nov 13 10:15:03 <gregdek> Jeremy: "Continuing to play devil's advocate, blah blah blah."
Nov 13 10:15:10 <gregdek> :)
Nov 13 10:15:38 <Lovechild> it would also help to raise our profile which seems important, especially shaking that "red hat lite" image
Nov 13 10:16:18 <gregdek> Warren: "Lowering the roadblocks to contribution makes Fedora an actual meritocracy."
Nov 13 10:17:20 <jbowes> it would be nice to not have two different build systems, etc. as well
Nov 13 10:17:54 <spot> ... this telephone game is going to give me a headache.
Nov 13 10:17:57 <jwb> jbowes, yes. that doesn't really mean that Core has to be open
Nov 13 10:18:10 <jwb> (playing devil's advocate with jeremy)
Nov 13 10:18:22 <spot> is there no polycom in the room?
Nov 13 10:18:30 * spot can set up a toll-free bridge
Nov 13 10:18:51 <jwb> spot, that would be nice...
Nov 13 10:19:05 <jbowes> jwb: agreed. but the two would be easier if done together
Nov 13 10:19:14 <jwb> jbowes, sure
Nov 13 10:19:48 * greendisease hits spot over the head
Nov 13 10:19:57 <greendisease> i told you you should just fly here
Nov 13 10:20:04 <gregdek> spot: We're still trying to figure out if we can use the phone in this office. :)
Nov 13 10:20:11 <spot> greendisease: sure. clear my calendar for the next two days.
Nov 13 10:20:40 * spot points out that he gets paid to eat braiiiins, not work on Fedora.
Nov 13 10:21:23 <greendisease> word
Nov 13 10:22:32 <gregdek> Rex: "You know what, it all starts with a policy decision. We can all agree that we can change the definition of 'what ships' as 'what's in the Fedora Universe," not necessarily what's in Core. And we can start the ball rolling right now by moving a ton of packages from Core to Extras.
Nov 13 10:23:54 <gregdek> Jeremy: "We don't want to necessarily wait to move packages from Core to Extras. If we wait until we've got all the revision control questions sorted, it gets harder to move immediately."
Nov 13 10:24:14 <jwb> that depends
Nov 13 10:26:00 <gregdek> Max: "Here's the trivial case we must solve. Thunderbird spec file is broken. It's a one-line fix. Twenty people post the fix in Bugzilla. It blocks on a RH engineer having time to commit the change. That's broken, and we need to fix it."
Nov 13 10:26:54 <gregdek> Jeremy: "Which is more important to fix immediately: build system, or source control. Build system is what gets us moving now."
Nov 13 10:27:48 <Lovechild> well given the glacial pace at which people normally make big decisions would it not be good to move as many package now then open the question of a cvs replacement to the extras people. That way we get the benefit of being able to fix stuff now
Nov 13 10:28:43 * gregdek speaks Lovechild's mind. :)
Nov 13 10:29:13 <jwb> just moving packages from one repo to another doesn't really solve anything though
Nov 13 10:29:23 <gregdek> Jesse responds: "We need more than plague to do this. Something that has package collections, package tagging, freezes, etc. And rather than building that infrastructure around CVS, we might need to change that first."
Nov 13 10:29:36 <gregdek> Jesse responds from the Build Master perspective, heh.
Nov 13 10:30:01 <Lovechild> Jesse speaks wisdom though, no reason to build a house on a foundation of quicksand
Nov 13 10:30:20 <jwb> f13, be careful with the term Freeze
Nov 13 10:30:25 <jwb> Extras doesn't freeze
Nov 13 10:30:48 <gregdek> Sounds like that's something we'll be discussing. :)
Nov 13 10:31:06 <gregdek> Looks like Extras and Core folks will have to meet in the middle to figure out what a "release" is going to look like.
Nov 13 10:31:27 <jwb> most likely
Nov 13 10:31:40 <gregdek> In a brave new world, how do we come up with a concept of "release" for CD spins, etc., that can contain both Extras and Core?
Nov 13 10:32:40 <gregdek> Jeremy: "This is why it takes Debian 3 years for a release. This is why Ubuntu has very different rules for Main and Universe. This is why OpenSuSE... well, has OpenSuSE released?"
Nov 13 10:33:36 --> craigt (n=cthomas@static-68-236-219-35.nwrk.east.verizon.net) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 10:34:22 <gregdek> Much talking about "what policies need to exist distinguishing Core and Extras."
Nov 13 10:34:27 <jwb> the way i see it, Core and Extras is just a logical line that is materialized into a physical means via separate repositories
Nov 13 10:34:42 <jwb> merge into a common repo, and you have what really exists
Nov 13 10:35:04 <jwb> you have fedora. then you can talk about what packages comprise a Fedora Base
Nov 13 10:35:20 <gregdek> Blizzard arrives! He looks like he slept in a box under the freeway.
Nov 13 10:35:53 <Lovechild> oh.. mental images.. the horror
Nov 13 10:35:57 <jbowes> hehe
Nov 13 10:36:06 <gregdek> Jesse: "Figuring out the use case for what we ship tells us what we target for freeze, while the community continues to roll forward."
Nov 13 10:36:18 <jwb> yes
Nov 13 10:36:21 <gregdek> Blizzard was up until 2am working on OLPC, poor bastard.
Nov 13 10:36:58 <gregdek> DaveJ: "Security folks are also tracking stuff somewhat in Core."
Nov 13 10:37:13 <jwb> they can do that in a merged repo
Nov 13 10:37:30 <gregdek> Warren is drawing a smiley face on the whiteboard. No, it's a hat. No, it's a dinner plate! No, it's a conceptual map of the Fedora Universe!
Nov 13 10:37:31 <Lovechild> f13: Maybe some what similar to what rpath does with conary.. premade isos and isos on demand?
Nov 13 10:37:35 --> nasrat (n=nasrat@91.84.17.49) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 10:37:38 <gregdek> No, it's actually a dinner plate.
Nov 13 10:37:50 <jwb> packages don't magically disappear or change names when put into a different repo
Nov 13 10:38:12 * gregdek waits to pass along jwb's wisdom.
Nov 13 10:38:34 <jwb> ugh, please refrain from calling any of my drivel "wisdom" ;)
Nov 13 10:38:47 --> wjd (n=wjd@static65-87-224-74.regina.accesscomm.ca) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 10:38:47 <samfw> i think he was being sarcastic
Nov 13 10:39:20 <gregdek> Jesse: "At the end of the day, people will want to spin ISOs based on both 'stuff we call Core' and 'stuff we call Extras'. Therefore, we must either freeze everything, or nothing at all."
Nov 13 10:40:09 <gregdek> Blizzard: "We really need to shrink what we call 'the Base'. The stuff that *really* needs to be *stable* is actually fairly small."
Nov 13 10:40:20 <gregdek> Jeremy: "What is the platform is a really big one."
Nov 13 10:41:47 <gregdek> Wow. Blizzard is talking all about his "Bigger Tent."
Nov 13 10:41:56 --- gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: Setting the Agenda. Brought to you by Smiling Bob.
Nov 13 10:43:19 <gregdek> So I have proposed THE LARGE GOAL, which is this: "Allowing anybody to contribute packages to the Universe, and allowing anybody to build their own distro based on that package set."
Nov 13 10:43:39 <Lovechild> one could see how derived projects would benefit from blizzards tiny stable base and then a concept of say a gnome-desktop but then the variantions become endless and if we go down that road looking at rbuilder might not be a bad idea
Nov 13 10:43:41 <gregdek> And we're now discussing this philosophically to make sure it's the right goal. (Which we seem to agree on.)
Nov 13 10:45:33 <Lovechild> one of Fedora' great strenghts is clearly that it's a nice base for a derived project: RHEL, OLPC, PS3' OS.. all build on Fedora. We should definitely hang on tightly to that goal
Nov 13 10:45:48 <jwb> yes
Nov 13 10:45:59 <thl> +1
Nov 13 10:46:36 --> jrb (i=jrb@nat/redhat/x-11f94ebf3cd277bf) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 10:46:48 <Lovechild> while a bit to technical for this stage in the game I would urge having a look at what rbuilder does since it seems to be good at that task specificly
Nov 13 10:47:10 <gregdek> Blizzard: "We should also CELEBRATE all of these downstreams, which we've never really done."
Nov 13 10:47:24 <jwb> what does that mean?
Nov 13 10:47:33 <gregdek> I'm trying to find that out. :)
Nov 13 10:47:47 <Lovechild> completely agreed, I'm often sad that we don't congratulate people like Yellow dog for selecting Fedora as the base for a massive deployment
Nov 13 10:47:50 <gregdek> Basically, if Fedora is so sweet, we should be bragging about that.
Nov 13 10:48:02 <gregdek> General nodding and agreement.
Nov 13 10:48:05 <jwb> we do...
Nov 13 10:48:12 <gregdek> Apparently not enough. ;-)
Nov 13 10:48:28 <jwb> or is he talking about taking out ads in NYTimes or something?
Nov 13 10:48:44 <jwb> anyway, doesn't matter much. need more rah, rah for fedora. got it
Nov 13 10:48:51 <Lovechild> press releases and general community praising would be a good place to start..
Nov 13 10:49:14 --> dgilmore (n=dennis@fedora/dgilmore) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 10:49:18 <nasrat> but some downstreams are appalling about pushing patches back up
Nov 13 10:49:26 <nasrat> despite much prodding
Nov 13 10:49:41 <Lovechild> maybe we could try and give Fedora Advocates a bigger profile, I would love to go out and preach the fedora gospel some more
Nov 13 10:49:57 <jwb> nasrat, yeah. i'm a bit cautious about celebration ATM too
Nov 13 10:52:05 <Lovechild> on the other hand if the fedora community enmass praised these people for selecting Fedora out of the many platforms to build on, we could get them to partake a bit in the fun. I think we should at least try to reach out to these people, if for nothing but to tell the world that there's Fedora in <foo>..
Nov 13 10:52:12 --> blizzard (n=blizzard@H11.C26.B96.tor.eicat.ca) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 10:52:19 <gregdek> OK, so we are going to state, clearly, the reasons we're choosing to open Fedora:
Nov 13 10:52:29 <gregdek> 1. A bigger tent. More people involved means a better distro.
Nov 13 10:52:57 <gregdek> 2. Allows for Fedora use cases that we don't envision: innovation happens at the edges.
Nov 13 10:53:45 <gregdek> 3. Makes it easier to build downstream distros -- which people are already doing, so we can at least make it easier. (RHEL, OLPC, PS3, etc.)
Nov 13 10:54:38 <Lovechild> it should probably be innovation happens everywhere and we want to allow it to happen freely
Nov 13 10:55:17 <Lovechild> otherwise it implies that base doesn't innovate or that we dont.. which would be playing down the efforts of the platform community
Nov 13 10:55:30 --> brezhnev (n=brezhnev@user-0c93l9p.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 10:55:31 <gregdek> (Warren is busily restating point 1 as "meeting the community halfway." So let it be recorded.)
Nov 13 10:55:44 --> apuch (i=apuch@nat/redhat/x-6ebfdd3fa4ac8f62) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 10:56:20 --- apuch is now known as wilee
Nov 13 10:56:40 --> jberman (i=jberman@nat/redhat/x-f52d1c804692e4bf) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 10:56:51 <gregdek> 4. Making it easier for downstream to commit their interesting changes back to us.
Nov 13 10:57:40 <gregdek> Spot calls Aurora retarded. And he would know.
Nov 13 10:58:05 <gregdek> Now general talk about making the build tools available.
Nov 13 10:58:14 <gregdek> But we can do more.
Nov 13 10:58:32 <gregdek> I LIKE COCAINE.
Nov 13 10:58:41 <blizzard> speaking of freebasing
Nov 13 10:59:00 --> warren (n=warren@redhat/wombat/warren) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 10:59:00 <jwb> what?
Nov 13 10:59:08 <gregdek> Nothing.
Nov 13 10:59:09 <gregdek> Moving on:
Nov 13 10:59:26 --- gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 11am. Identifying the Problems to be Solved for Opening Fedora.
Nov 13 10:59:38 <gregdek> Max is making a list on the board. To wit:
Nov 13 10:59:44 <f13> jwb: Fedora is a freebase from which to smoke your own flavor of crack
Nov 13 10:59:56 <jwb> f13, ah thanks
Nov 13 11:00:01 <Lovechild> f13: just don't do a Richard Pryor on us now
Nov 13 11:00:09 <gregdek> 1. Build Infrastructure for both packages and distro.
Nov 13 11:00:19 <gregdek> 2. Source infrastructure.
Nov 13 11:00:31 <gregdek> 3. Release methodology: freezes, updates.
Nov 13 11:00:37 <gregdek> 4. Architectures.
Nov 13 11:00:56 <jwb> 4 can tie into 1
Nov 13 11:01:05 <blizzard> yes
Nov 13 11:01:06 <blizzard> it can
Nov 13 11:01:35 --> pink_trout (n=TroutFis@stones.wcbe.org) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 11:01:53 <nasrat> gregdek: there is nothing hard about posting to mailing lists (eg anaconda-devel-list) but people consistently fail to push patches that way
Nov 13 11:02:02 --- greendisease gives channel operator status to gregdek
Nov 13 11:02:08 <gregdek> 5. QA and Testing.
Nov 13 11:02:35 <dgilmore> gregdek: aurora isint quite retarded its like the dyslexic slightly dysfunctional half brother you dont want :D
Nov 13 11:02:38 <wilee> Is sun java going to be in fc7 ?
Nov 13 11:02:58 <jwb> wilee, offtopic at the moment
Nov 13 11:03:08 <gregdek> Bits aren't dropping until March of 2007... so, no. And off-topic. ;-)
Nov 13 11:03:18 <spot> sun java will go into Fedora when source code is available. :)
Nov 13 11:03:59 <wilee> sorry , but this is a big deal to a lot of folks
Nov 13 11:04:29 <greendisease> we understanfd, its just not part pof the discussion at this point
Nov 13 11:05:33 <gregdek> It's a big deal to us too.
Nov 13 11:05:34 <gregdek> But we've got plenty of time to think about it, heh.
Nov 13 11:07:51 <gregdek> 3. Release methodology: freezes, updates, lifecycle, branding.
Nov 13 11:08:55 <gregdek> 0. Platform. Fedora Standard Base, flavors, Live CD, etc.
Nov 13 11:10:59 <Lovechild> so are we going for an Ubuntu like setup where the Fedora project commits to providing a base plus a desktop then leaves alternatives to the community in a collarobative fasion? Also how would that suit people like the OLPC who might want influence on base
Nov 13 11:11:47 <gregdek> 6. Project Hosting.
Nov 13 11:13:23 <Lovechild> if we have a distributed revision control system hosting everything on Fedora servers wouldn't be a major issue since the overlapping between spec files and packages wouldn't be huge.. right?
Nov 13 11:13:45 <jwb> Lovechild, huh?
Nov 13 11:13:45 <gregdek> Maybe.
Nov 13 11:14:05 <gregdek> We're getting issues on the board right now, so we can put a timetable for discussion around them.
Nov 13 11:14:15 <gregdek> So we're not going to drill down too deeply just yet.
Nov 13 11:14:33 <Lovechild> understood
Nov 13 11:15:45 <Lovechild> might we not have to look into communications infrastructure?
Nov 13 11:16:05 <jwb> Lovechild, example?
Nov 13 11:17:15 <Lovechild> jwb: it's suboptimal to allow derived projects without enabling them to talk together - we should harness the power for the freedom we are giving people by allowing them to work together.
Nov 13 11:17:56 --> davidz (n=davidz@c-65-96-184-48.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 11:18:03 <blizzard> z of the david
Nov 13 11:18:09 <davidz> c of the blizzard!
Nov 13 11:18:14 <dgilmore> Lovechild: we have mailing lists, and irc do you want something like a jabber.fedoraproject.org server also?
Nov 13 11:18:24 <jwb> Lovechild, what dgilmore said...
Nov 13 11:18:48 <thl> please, not another communication way (like jabber) :-/
Nov 13 11:19:07 <thl> it's hard enought to keep track of everything already
Nov 13 11:19:19 <dgilmore> thl: indeed
Nov 13 11:19:33 <Lovechild> dgilmore: I meant more when a new project is registered it would be nice if they also got free means of communications.. I would favor a means of communications that referencable from other teams like a mailing list with a webarchive
Nov 13 11:19:54 <f13> Lovechild: that could fall under 'project hosting'
Nov 13 11:19:57 <thl> Lovechild, i think the "enabling them to talk together" with improve over timne
Nov 13 11:19:57 <jwb> Lovechild, i think that's part of 6. Project hosting
Nov 13 11:20:23 <gregdek> Absolutely.
Nov 13 11:21:12 <Lovechild> okay, I'll take your word for that then.
Nov 13 11:21:37 --> dmalcolm (i=dmalcolm@nat/redhat/x-ceeddc57e5a17c05) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 11:23:04 <gregdek> 7. IS/IT/Infrastructure issues.
Nov 13 11:23:22 <jwb> ugh
Nov 13 11:23:28 <blizzard> ?
Nov 13 11:23:33 <gregdek> Heh. We hates it, precious.
Nov 13 11:23:38 <gregdek> 8. I18N issues.
Nov 13 11:24:11 <gregdek> 8. I18N/Docs related issues.
Nov 13 11:24:41 <jwb> blizzard, IS/IT issues are always painful. doesn't matter what company is involved :)
Nov 13 11:26:06 <dgilmore> gregdek: on 7 we need a better way for Fedora Infrastructure to communicate with Red Hat IS/IT
Nov 13 11:26:24 <jwb> or find a company that is willing to host it all
Nov 13 11:27:29 <smooge> on 7 you also need a better communication with Red Hat Finance (or whatever it its called) as money is what talks about priorities for RH IS/IT
Nov 13 11:27:55 <gregdek> smooge: +1
Nov 13 11:28:28 <dgilmore> smooge: on that we need some communication
Nov 13 11:30:35 <gregdek> Break time. Back in a few.
Nov 13 11:31:15 <gregdek> Next up: Platform Discussion.
Nov 13 11:34:54 <smooge> The big thing is that IS/IT serves 2 masters which never works well. Finance controls the strings but works their puppets in IT, the customers control the request and work through their puppets in IT to finance
Nov 13 11:36:27 <wilee> since this is a break
Nov 13 11:37:23 <blizzard> smooge is ever the conspiracy theorist
Nov 13 11:37:25 <blizzard> I miss smooge
Nov 13 11:37:36 <gregdek> Gee, you'd think that smooge had worked with RH and knew all the poor suckers who still work there. Or something.
Nov 13 11:37:43 <f13> bah
Nov 13 11:37:57 <blizzard> <notting> dance, monkey, dance!
Nov 13 11:37:58 <f13> smooge has no idea what it takes to release a product.
Nov 13 11:39:27 <-- ChitleshGoorah has quit ("Leaving")
Nov 13 11:39:42 <wilee> what are the chances of getting brutus into extras ? http://www.omesc.com/modules/main_module/
Nov 13 11:40:03 <jwb> wilee, you should ask on #fedora-extras
Nov 13 11:40:22 <wilee> ok
Nov 13 11:40:33 <jwb> wilee, this channel usually doesn't even exist and is only here for a couple days to cover a meeting being held
Nov 13 11:42:16 <gregdek> Getting started again.
Nov 13 11:43:31 <blizzard> greg keeps hurting me
Nov 13 11:43:50 --- gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 11:45am, Fedora Orbital Mind Control Lasers (i.e. Platform)
Nov 13 11:44:10 <warren> crap. I didn't know it did mind control too.
Nov 13 11:44:24 <blizzard> warren: then we've succeeded
Nov 13 11:44:30 <smooge> f13, you are quite right.. never did it myself.. never tried to run a mirror, and never tried to figure out how to cut costs to meet a price mark
Nov 13 11:44:51 <f13> hehe
Nov 13 11:45:03 <f13> smooge: clearly you're just talking out your arse.
Nov 13 11:45:05 * davidz uhh; Orbital Lasers again!! More talk about blowing up Denmark?
Nov 13 11:45:06 <gregdek> Now we are discussing the "Fedora Platform" or the "Fedora Standard Base".
Nov 13 11:45:37 <warren> katzj: Obviously Part of Platform: What compiler?
Nov 13 11:45:50 <warren> blizzard: Stuff comfortable making promises about
Nov 13 11:45:53 <warren> davej: There will be a kernel
Nov 13 11:47:07 <warren> katzj: Include things that are obvious: base kernel, compiler, glibc, GNOME, X
Nov 13 11:47:17 <warren> notting: guaranteeing ABI of a particular version of that platform
Nov 13 11:47:29 <warren> blizzard: 20 guys on GNOME, 1 guy on KDE
Nov 13 11:47:33 <warren> notting: that could change, we have community
Nov 13 11:47:38 <warren> blizzard: question of release criteria
Nov 13 11:47:51 <warren> blizzard: enough interest, anything can become part of the release
Nov 13 11:47:59 <warren> katzj: platform implies a certain thing over life of release
Nov 13 11:48:35 <warren> Extras, rolling release, Core, updates
Nov 13 11:48:41 <warren> mindset sort of thing
Nov 13 11:48:47 <warren> Platform do updates
Nov 13 11:48:49 <warren> other things have rolling
Nov 13 11:49:00 <warren> bits in platform works together with each other
Nov 13 11:49:12 <warren> Extras - bumping is OK, as long as you bump five other things
Nov 13 11:49:19 <warren> Platform - minimalize changes that require other changes
Nov 13 11:49:27 <warren> davej: kernel interfaces change
Nov 13 11:49:49 <warren> blizzard: too easy to get trapped into RHEL mindset, are important, but not as important
Nov 13 11:50:06 <warren> barrier for making change (warren: progress) in Fedora is lower
Nov 13 11:50:13 --> rdieter (n=rdieter@sting.unl.edu) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 11:50:58 <warren> katzj: some scientific libraries in Extras move faster, not part of platform
Nov 13 11:51:03 <warren> blizzard: why care about platform?
Nov 13 11:51:23 <warren> katzj: care because if we are allowing spins at arbitrary points of time, there have to be things that are consistent at that point
Nov 13 11:51:32 <warren> not in the middle of a mass rebuild for a new gcc
Nov 13 11:51:43 <warren> jkeating: "Fedora" release must be what is declared for that released platform
Nov 13 11:52:05 <warren> (talking too fast)
Nov 13 11:52:07 * warren argh!!!
Nov 13 11:52:46 --> jrp (n=whatever@i-195-137-67-222.freedom2surf.net) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 11:52:48 <warren> blizzard: 1) Lead up to release
Nov 13 11:52:51 <warren> 2) post-release
Nov 13 11:53:15 <warren> katzj: Platform is what defines a release point.
Nov 13 11:53:22 <warren> blizzard: time based releases
Nov 13 11:53:51 <warren> notting: ABI's in core change!
Nov 13 11:53:53 <warren> katzj: argh!!!!
Nov 13 11:54:00 <warren> notting: we've changed RPM in the past
Nov 13 11:54:07 <warren> gregdek: never again change RPM until the day we replace it
Nov 13 11:54:20 <warren> blizzard: choice of ABI change, x.org 7.0/7.1, want to bump to 7.1
Nov 13 11:54:26 <warren> example of gratuitous
Nov 13 11:54:29 <warren> decided not to do so
Nov 13 11:54:39 <warren> jkeating: balance we have to strike
Nov 13 11:55:01 <warren> blizzard: enable making some of those choices
Nov 13 11:55:11 <warren> (wanting to provide choice of 7.0 or 7.1)
Nov 13 11:55:19 <warren> davej: need to provide drivers for too many flavors
Nov 13 11:55:28 <warren> katzj: why is X interesting to do that and gcc isn't.
Nov 13 11:55:40 <warren> gregdek: agree on notion of promise, platform
Nov 13 11:55:49 <warren> blizzard: promise to make to ourselves
Nov 13 11:56:06 <warren> We know as a community we can do the work to get something out the door.
Nov 13 11:56:20 <warren> Post-release the promise is different.
Nov 13 11:56:35 <warren> No gratutious ABI breakage unless there is great end-user benefit
Nov 13 11:56:53 <warren> Post-release, promise to maintain the platform
Nov 13 11:56:56 <warren> update if necessary
Nov 13 11:57:03 <warren> Promise to not gratuitously break.
Nov 13 11:57:21 <Lovechild> would this include roadmap promises like Fedora Platform Foo will ship GCC 4.1.x, xorg 7.2, etc?
Nov 13 11:57:32 <warren> Lovechild, kind of the idea yes.
Nov 13 11:57:51 <warren> Lovechild, dependent on things we can't control though, like upstream schedules
Nov 13 11:58:02 <f13> warren: Lovechild: we do some of htat now, with saying we'll target gnome foo-bar for the release.
Nov 13 11:58:09 <Lovechild> naturally but an admirable goal
Nov 13 11:58:25 <warren> notting: I want to write software for Fedora, what interfaces should I use?
Nov 13 11:58:41 <warren> Change or remove things from platform, try to announce well in advance.
Nov 13 11:58:55 <warren> jkeating: target this gcc, glibc, gnome version, try to know ahead of time by looking at roadmap
Nov 13 11:59:00 <warren> promise that these components will be in the platform
Nov 13 11:59:19 <warren> We've had it with GNOME, let people know why we are removing it in the future.
Nov 13 11:59:21 <warren> (just an example)
Nov 13 11:59:37 <warren> QA...
Nov 13 11:59:40 <jrb> huh?
Nov 13 11:59:47 <jrb> we're removing gnome?
Nov 13 11:59:53 <warren> jrb, s/GNOME/foo/
Nov 13 12:00:03 <jrb> we're replacing gnome with foo?
Nov 13 12:00:10 * jrb misses some point...
Nov 13 12:00:11 <blizzard> strawman :)
Nov 13 12:00:42 <greendisease> i vote for xfce
Nov 13 12:00:44 <warren> blizzard: Technical roadmaps are nearly impossible, that is why we do time based releases
Nov 13 12:00:54 <jwb> that wasn't quite the context
Nov 13 12:01:24 <warren> Gregdek: innovation will happen around us whether we (something do something) or not.
Nov 13 12:01:24 <greendisease> we're just trying to define what the criteria for a roadmap should be
Nov 13 12:01:56 <davidz> So.. anyone explain why is it interesting to know the versions of the components like X.org / gcc at all?
Nov 13 12:01:58 <greendisease> and if we decide to drop something from the platform, we should let people know, vis-a-vis and accordsing to the roadmap
Nov 13 12:02:00 <warren> gregdek: Question: Cases where we allow people outside to own packages, do we explicitly define notion of RH being prime maintainer?
Nov 13 12:02:18 <warren> katzj: No, person is primary maintainer. Person works for RH, job function, might reassign, but ...
Nov 13 12:02:22 <warren> Fedora is about people.
Nov 13 12:02:29 <davidz> either I'm an open source developer and you can patch my sources... otherwise I'm an ISV (e.g. Real, Adobe) and just statically link everything but what the LSB tells me
Nov 13 12:02:53 <warren> blizzard: Success condition over time, more external contributions over time.
Nov 13 12:03:01 <warren> mozilla, took seven years
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Nov 13 12:03:15 <warren> What happens when community folks say they want to maintain Xen?
Nov 13 12:03:19 <warren> katzj: They wont want to.
Nov 13 12:03:20 * davidz just not sure why it's useful to know the versions of e.g. X.org and gcc - apart from some fuzzy feeling that next Fedora will include new X.org, Cairo or gstreamer goodness
Nov 13 12:03:30 <davidz> (for example)
Nov 13 12:03:35 <warren> "Who wants to touch that? Be real.", says gregdek
Nov 13 12:03:47 <greendisease> davidz: from an api perspective
Nov 13 12:03:49 <warren> blizzard: We want to enable contribution, but gregdek: policy decision of board
Nov 13 12:04:11 <greendisease> if we are going to define the release of this platform is based on Xorg.foo
Nov 13 12:04:12 <warren> katzj: Who brought xen into distro? that's who leads that
Nov 13 12:04:20 <greendisease> and we are encouraging derivatives
Nov 13 12:04:22 <davidz> greendisease: no, either the app is open source and packager can patch... otherwise it's binary only and statically links everything but what the LSB prescribes
Nov 13 12:04:37 <warren> Example: yum was brought into Fedora by community
Nov 13 12:04:40 <warren> yum is maintained by community
Nov 13 12:04:47 <warren> jeremy is package monkey
Nov 13 12:05:24 <warren> blizzard: if RH wants to own something, RH needs to give resources, lead ... and be upstream
Nov 13 12:05:30 <warren> warren: accountable
Nov 13 12:06:10 * davidz thinks it would be a lot more useful to convey more high-level roadmap - e.g. "next Fedora will contain feature X, Y and Z", not "next Fedora will include X.org 7.2, gcc 4.3" etc. - e.g. features, not API/ABI
Nov 13 12:06:31 <blizzard> davidz: ageed around the room, I think
Nov 13 12:06:48 <warren> Who determines ownership of a particular package when the result is important to RH's business.
Nov 13 12:07:06 <blizzard> he who steps up to the plate
Nov 13 12:07:14 <warren> Sometimes inside, sometimes outside
Nov 13 12:07:18 <warren> yum is proof that outside model can work
Nov 13 12:07:33 <warren> notting: tried model of past, "gatekeeper", painful
Nov 13 12:07:44 <warren> katzj: committer to upstream yum
Nov 13 12:08:11 <warren> blizzard: if RH is failing, someone else can improve it on the side and prove they can do it better.
Nov 13 12:08:28 <warren> currently no way of making this visible in a central location
Nov 13 12:08:33 <warren> ALTERNATIVES!?
Nov 13 12:08:34 * warren argh!!
Nov 13 12:09:50 <warren> (i'm not sure how to transcribe what they are talking about now)
Nov 13 12:10:13 <Lovechild> warren: then hit them with a cluebat
Nov 13 12:10:21 <warren> gregdek: getting high off of dry-erase marker
Nov 13 12:10:35 <warren> Greg intervention
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Nov 13 12:11:21 <warren> Platform: This is the set of packages we will not break gratuitously.
Nov 13 12:12:02 <warren> Graph: gratuitous breakage over packages
Nov 13 12:12:38 <warren> curve
Nov 13 12:12:44 <warren> glibc/gcc (left bottom)
Nov 13 12:12:47 <warren> gnome X
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Nov 13 12:12:52 <warren> KDE/XFCE
Nov 13 12:12:53 <warren> firefox
Nov 13 12:13:03 <warren> kmod/madwifi (top right)
Nov 13 12:13:12 <warren> davej: nvidia, like anyone uses that
Nov 13 12:13:47 <warren> How do we come up with list of packages that are in the platform?
Nov 13 12:14:24 <warren> strong visible roadmap: these are things that will be in this version
Nov 13 12:15:33 <glezos> It would be so cool if we had a webcam in there... :/
Nov 13 12:16:42 <warren> (Discussion of how to decide what exactly is a platform)
Nov 13 12:16:44 <warren> more than just an ABI
Nov 13 12:16:50 <greendisease> glezos: we're all really ugly, you probably dont want to see us on camera
Nov 13 12:16:53 <warren> example: behavior of GNOME menus not going to change in an update
Nov 13 12:17:22 <glezos> greendisease, a microphone
Nov 13 12:17:45 <glezos> equally cool. anyway. This streaming is very useful too. :)
Nov 13 12:18:07 <warren> Max: Care less about frequency of changes, care more about QA
Nov 13 12:18:18 <warren> figure out if platform is small core set of stuff that all fedora building comes from
Nov 13 12:19:45 <warren> How do you make it clear when not to update a package that breaks something
Nov 13 12:20:47 <warren> Extras is rolling, but this will be problematic when EVERYTHING becomes Extras.
Nov 13 12:21:02 <warren> Platform matters because you need a stable base to build upon.
Nov 13 12:21:11 <warren> Rebuildability and maintainability.
Nov 13 12:21:42 <warren> Part of the problem: Signaling other people to rebuild
Nov 13 12:21:45 <warren> example: openssl
Nov 13 12:21:48 <warren> rebuild openssl, oh crap!
Nov 13 12:21:53 <thl> hasn't one of the fooBSDs a platform modell?
Nov 13 12:21:55 <warren> everyone needs to rebuild everything that uses it
Nov 13 12:22:07 <warren> jkeating: we do not want automated builds
Nov 13 12:22:16 <warren> debian autorebuilds things against openssl
Nov 13 12:22:46 <warren> jkeating, gregdek: need way to test builds to see if it breaks things
Nov 13 12:23:03 <warren> katzj: distribution issues are huge, bandwidth resources necessary
Nov 13 12:23:22 <warren> notting: build openssl, dep check repo, built in scratch collection, dep check again to see if fixed
Nov 13 12:24:06 <warren> katzj: Today: Core defines the stable base with certain gcc/glibc, etc.
Nov 13 12:24:18 <warren> blizzard: whatever version you happen to have at release time
Nov 13 12:24:27 <Lovechild> well what's the magnatude of this issue, the majority of updates are harmless from this prespective right and the majority of contributors should be wise enough to shot off a mail or bugzilla entry when there's a problem like this - let's not define policy around corner cases
Nov 13 12:25:30 <warren> Platform: All packages for which we will announce version at release time.
Nov 13 12:25:43 <warren> katzj: a project communicates a set of features
Nov 13 12:25:54 <warren> blizzard: fedora specific stuff, I want to do features, not versions
Nov 13 12:26:15 <warren> Lovechild, "Should"
Nov 13 12:26:26 <warren> Tool problem
Nov 13 12:26:49 <warren> not a problem now, different policy for core than Extras.
Nov 13 12:27:06 <warren> warren: occasionally is a problem in Extras
Nov 13 12:27:13 <warren> (again: tools problem)
Nov 13 12:27:22 <warren> Policy, violate, whack!
Nov 13 12:27:58 <warren> Cascade of rebuilds happen in devel, but not released.
Nov 13 12:28:27 <glezos> To generalize the idea for Platform, one idea is to define rough zones of package importance (where Platform is zone 1 and Core was something like zones 1-3). If distinction becomes modular and is reflected in final shipped CDs, then the more CDs one downloaded the more software he could install.
Nov 13 12:28:31 <warren> gregdek: We need scratch tools, see what changes are need, "OMG! 600 packages?"
Nov 13 12:28:46 <warren> katzj: really easy to tell, ABI change or not
Nov 13 12:28:51 <warren> (something about pornography that I missed)
Nov 13 12:29:59 <Lovechild> pornography.. oh man I so wanted to hear the context of that one..
Nov 13 12:30:01 <warren> katzj: What is platform trying to do?
Nov 13 12:30:05 <warren> trying to define a release
Nov 13 12:30:14 <warren> set of stuff that a release is built around, distros built around
Nov 13 12:30:17 <warren> can't have a rolling platform
Nov 13 12:30:37 <warren> Extras is not the platform
Nov 13 12:30:40 <warren> Core is the platform (now)
Nov 13 12:30:45 <warren> Core is too huge as a platform
Nov 13 12:31:33 --> stavrosg (n=stavrosg@unaffiliated/stavrosg) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 12:31:34 <warren> some in Extras wants to stop these gratuitous breakages
Nov 13 12:31:51 <warren> key question, how many changes does this change cascade to?
Nov 13 12:32:08 <warren> Proposed policy statement, how many changes does this create?
Nov 13 12:32:21 <warren> If more than X changes, requires approval from $HIGHER_AUTHORITY.
Nov 13 12:32:25 <warren> want to avoid gratuitous change
Nov 13 12:32:30 <warren> (tools problem)
Nov 13 12:32:40 <warren> katzj: How bigness of change?
Nov 13 12:33:07 <warren> openssl, backport security fixes to avoid gratuitous rebuild the world.
Nov 13 12:33:12 <warren> notting: define common sense
Nov 13 12:33:24 <warren> gregdek: define platform by common sense criteria, doomed to fail
Nov 13 12:33:29 <warren> notting: but that is what we are trying to do
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Nov 13 12:33:43 <warren> notting: invalidate documentation guides?
Nov 13 12:35:49 <warren> Platform: Sliding scale that prevents gratuitous change when we move to a "Universe" model.
Nov 13 12:36:06 <warren> (Extras could be held at a higher standard to avoid big cascading changes.)
Nov 13 12:36:12 <warren> directfb?
Nov 13 12:36:15 <warren> =(
Nov 13 12:36:33 * warren wonders why we *NEED* things to be linked to directfb? how important is that really?
Nov 13 12:36:34 <mether> how many volunteer packagers would be able to keep up with a 6 month release and freeze process?
Nov 13 12:37:06 <warren> notting: don't write things in tcl!
Nov 13 12:37:10 <warren> not i18nized
Nov 13 12:37:17 <warren> blizzard: don't do new things in tcl
Nov 13 12:37:29 <warren> (religious wars happening over table)
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Nov 13 12:37:57 <davidz> gitk is tk IIRC
Nov 13 12:38:01 <davidz> for example
Nov 13 12:38:15 <jwb> it is
Nov 13 12:38:34 <jwb> but qgit isn't
Nov 13 12:39:22 <warren> (people are antsy and hungry)
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Nov 13 12:40:49 <gregdek> Am I still here
Nov 13 12:40:54 <gregdek> Yes, good. :)
Nov 13 12:41:17 <warren> (having network connectivity issues)
Nov 13 12:41:55 <glezos> Is defining a platform enough for solving the problems it addresses? Or a more general ranking of package importance is needed (where really important packages == Platform)?
Nov 13 12:44:27 <f13> glezos: the platform helps us to define what the "more" important packages are.
Nov 13 12:44:39 <warren> * Platform is a sliding scale to to prevent gratuitous change in our new universe world.
Nov 13 12:44:55 <warren> * Platform provides some of what core provides now in terms of defining a release.
Nov 13 12:45:00 <warren> * We are defining common sense.
Nov 13 12:45:11 * warren stomach growling.
Nov 13 12:45:17 <blizzard> food
Nov 13 12:45:23 <blizzard> we're ordering 'pies'
Nov 13 12:45:24 <blizzard> I want apple
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Nov 13 12:46:15 --- gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 12:45 AM -- lunch break
Nov 13 12:46:31 <samfw> late lunch :)
Nov 13 12:46:53 --- gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 12:45 PM -- lunch break
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Nov 13 12:47:40 <blizzard> hungry
Nov 13 12:47:51 * lmacken rolls out of bed
Nov 13 12:47:55 <lmacken> mornin'
Nov 13 12:51:08 --> rdieter1 (n=rdieter1@static-71-243-117-136.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 12:57:03 <f13> the hunger.
Nov 13 12:58:41 --> coufer (n=bart@fedora/couf) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 13:04:30 --> mspevack (n=mspevack@fedora/mspevack) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 13:04:46 <mspevack> ok
Nov 13 13:04:50 <mspevack> right now we're doing several things
Nov 13 13:04:52 <mspevack> 1) waiting for pizza
Nov 13 13:05:02 <mspevack> 2) gregdek is updating the FedoraSummit page based on some of the things we talked about this morning
Nov 13 13:05:36 <mspevack> 3) people are sort of just bumping around on the internet for a little bit, kind of decompressing
Nov 13 13:05:36 <glezos> In an ideal world, shipped CDs/media will contain gradually less imporant packages and one could get a system running with 1 CD
Nov 13 13:05:46 <glezos> mspevack, thanks for the updates. :)
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Nov 13 13:12:40 <Lovechild> glezos: in an ideal world I would be sleeping with Jessica Alba.. but sadly this is not an ideal world
Nov 13 13:12:44 --> mdomsch (n=mdomsch@198.214.235.21) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 13:13:59 <glezos> Lovechild, I guess :) But that doesn't mean we shouldn't improve things, right?
Nov 13 13:14:50 <f13> glezos: lowering the cd count is one goal.
Nov 13 13:14:56 <f13> you _can_ get a system running with 1 cd NOW.
Nov 13 13:15:41 <jwb> erm... since when?
Nov 13 13:19:05 <Lovechild> jwb: as I recall if you select the desktop install using US english locale it will ask for the second cd but not use it.. it's not pretty though
Nov 13 13:19:32 <glezos> f13, yeah.. I'm just wondering if with the upcoming FC/FE merge, we would be needing a way to rank packages with decreasing popularity/importance. Anyway, just some food for thought.
Nov 13 13:19:32 <jwb> that means you need 2 CDs
Nov 13 13:20:17 <Lovechild> jwb: you can probably just ignore the request for cd2.. I haven't tried it myself though since I use da_DK locale
Nov 13 13:20:19 <mdomsch> glezos, RHN has a backend that lets RH corp know which packages are installed on any given system
Nov 13 13:20:28 <mdomsch> I think that would be beneficial to Fedora too
Nov 13 13:20:42 <mdomsch> installed != using, but it's a better proxy than nothing
Nov 13 13:20:45 <f13> jwb: if you forgo gui, you only need 1 CD
Nov 13 13:20:50 <Lovechild> mdomsch: kinda like popularity contest in debian?
Nov 13 13:21:05 <jwb> f13, hm.. i recall doing just that on PPC and it still needed 2
Nov 13 13:21:14 <f13> ppc is the broken platform
Nov 13 13:21:22 <f13> because ppc needs a library that is ppc only and on CD 2
Nov 13 13:21:29 <mdomsch> Lovechild, not familiar with that, but sounds right
Nov 13 13:21:32 <jwb> ok
Nov 13 13:21:34 <f13> I noted this in the TreeTesting page
Nov 13 13:21:40 <f13> holy crap we have another ppc user.
Nov 13 13:21:52 <jwb> you have more than you think
Nov 13 13:22:00 <Lovechild> mdomsch: it's basically a tiny program that phones home to tell debian which packages you have installed..
Nov 13 13:22:07 <glezos> um.. I'm on PPC too. :)
Nov 13 13:22:13 <f13> jwb: not according to the download counts...
Nov 13 13:22:32 <jwb> f13, we've been over this. ppc users are smart and just rsync rawhide a few days before the release ;)
Nov 13 13:22:34 <Lovechild> both our PPC users in the same irc room...
Nov 13 13:23:01 <jwb> dwmw2 has trained us well
Nov 13 13:23:51 <f13> so is there enough ppc users to sustain the arch on its own? (like aurora?)
Nov 13 13:24:27 <jwb> if you let external machines plug into the buildsys
Nov 13 13:24:41 <f13> aurora doesn't...
Nov 13 13:24:46 <jwb> which should be done for aurora
Nov 13 13:24:50 --- mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 2:00 restart with "Build Infrastructure"
Nov 13 13:25:06 <f13> jwb: yeah, that topic is later.
Nov 13 13:25:11 <jwb> f13, yep
Nov 13 13:25:46 <glezos> Do we have an estimation on the size of Fedora Universe?
Nov 13 13:25:54 <f13> yes
Nov 13 13:26:44 <blizzard> BILLIONS AND BILLIONS
Nov 13 13:27:14 <glezos> FC+FE in GBs?
Nov 13 13:28:18 <Lovechild> blizzard: I think you finally snapped...
Nov 13 13:28:19 <davidz> blizzard: "ok, I'll have one"
Nov 13 13:28:25 <mdomsch> glezos, ~5-6k packages
Nov 13 13:28:41 --> mmcgrath (n=mmcgrath@74.136.14.24) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 13:28:46 <mdomsch> ~3k SRPMS
Nov 13 13:28:57 * mmcgrath is here
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Nov 13 13:32:24 <samfw> mspevack: ping
Nov 13 13:32:52 <mspevack> samfw: pong
Nov 13 13:36:45 <mspevack> PIZZA IS HERE!
Nov 13 13:37:24 --> Glome (n=markus@host-212-149-221-32.kpylaajakaista.net) has joined #fedora-summit
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Nov 13 13:59:17 <mspevack> we're getting started
Nov 13 13:59:55 >dgilmore< hey jesse got disconnected
Nov 13 14:00:01 <mspevack> dgilmore: ping
Nov 13 14:00:02 >dgilmore< you wanna call in?
Nov 13 14:00:13 <dgilmore> mspevack: pong
Nov 13 14:00:29 <greendisease> dgilmore: read your private messages
Nov 13 14:01:17 <mspevack> dgilmore: i sent you a /msg
Nov 13 14:01:45 --> poelcat (i=slick@nat/redhat/x-5454c3dbe23aba56) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 14:02:06 <dgilmore> im there
Nov 13 14:02:56 <mspevack> jesse is leading the conversation now
Nov 13 14:03:13 <Lovechild> all hail Jesse.. leader of the free world
Nov 13 14:03:14 <mspevack> mspevack is handling the IRC notes
Nov 13 14:04:14 <mspevack> jesse -- "so, the build system. right now we have plague, which does ok for extras"
Nov 13 14:04:24 --> halfline (i=rstrode@nat/redhat/x-4342cc9f1f9f9a0f) has joined #fedora-summit
Nov 13 14:04:27 <mspevack> "not really any sort of management layer on top of plague -- collections, tagging, etc"
Nov 13 14:05:34 <mspevack> conversation about how yum and plague interact (inheritance based on repos), etc.
Nov 13 14:05:40 <mspevack> spot, toshio, and dgilmore on the phone
Nov 13 14:06:29 <mspevack> jesse -- "important things that we want are:
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Nov 13 14:06:32 <mspevack> collections with tags
Nov 13 14:06:34 <mspevack> inheritance
Nov 13 14:06:46 <mspevack> ability to create collections based on tags on the fly
Nov 13 14:07:22 <mspevack> example -- someone wants to upgrade python, but it will break other stuff. so you create a dist-fc7-python collection that inherits from dist-fc7
Nov 13 14:07:38 <mspevack> this idea extrapolates out to freezes"
Nov 13 14:07:48 <mspevack> max -- "what about embargoes"
Nov 13 14:08:10 <mspevack> jeremy -- "don't do much for it now, let's not worry about it for the moment"
Nov 13 14:08:23 <mspevack> jesse -- "let's talk about what a tag is"
Nov 13 14:08:46 <mspevack> package database. every time a package nvr is built, it is placed in the database with information (the build root, etc)
Nov 13 14:08:59 <mspevack> if you want the package in dist-fc7, you tag the package in the db for dist-fc7
Nov 13 14:09:12 <mspevack> then you can pull out all packages with a certain tag, for a release
Nov 13 14:09:25 <mspevack> a "collection" is a set of packages with the same tag
Nov 13 14:09:27 <rdieter1> r
Nov 13 14:09:39 <ChitleshGoorah> take for example, new guile in fc6 breaks geda packages in FE
Nov 13 14:09:52 <ChitleshGoorah> hence what should be done here ?
Nov 13 14:10:27 <mspevack> what tags, collections, inheritance get us is a better way of getting stuff out of the build system
Nov 13 14:10:53 <mspevack> these things don't exist in the extras build system, that we need
Nov 13 14:11:05 <mspevack> to have in any sort of "global" build system for the Fedora Universe
Nov 13 14:11:16 <ChitleshGoorah> on fc5 guile-1.6 on fc6 guile-1.8, geda no longer works properly for fc6
Nov 13 14:12:05 <rdieter1> ChitleshGoorah: imo, that's more geda's (ie, upstream) issue.
Nov 13 14:12:07 <jwb> ChitleshGoorah, that is more along the lines of the topics discussed this morning. the meeting has moved on now
Nov 13 14:12:17 <warren> mspevack, should mmcgrath be on the call too?
Nov 13 14:12:36 <mspevack> mmcgrath: i'll /msg you the call in info
Nov 13 14:12:38 <ChitleshGoorah> rdieter1: but I'm releasing a broken geda for fedora
Nov 13 14:12:47 <mmcgrath> warren: I'll be unavailable for another 40 minutes or so :(
Nov 13 14:12:57 <ChitleshGoorah> jwb: ok, anyone can send me the log ?
Nov 13 14:12:59 <mspevack> jeremy -- "to overstate the obvious, we want to keep using mock"
Nov 13 14:13:05 <warren> mmcgrath, things are ok, thanks.
Nov 13 14:13:06 <mmcgrath> mspevack: thanks
Nov 13 14:13:14 <rdieter1> ChitleshGoorah: is upstream aware?
Nov 13 14:13:15 <mspevack> we just need some management on top of mock, which is what jesse is talking about
Nov 13 14:13:22 <ChitleshGoorah> rdieter1: yes
Nov 13 14:13:22 <mspevack> jesse -- interesting questions are:
Nov 13 14:13:30 <warren> ChitleshGoorah, that is not the current topic
Nov 13 14:13:34 <mspevack> 1) do we add some of RHAT's internal tools on top of plague?
Nov 13 14:13:39 <ChitleshGoorah> warren: ok
Nov 13 14:13:48 <mspevack> 2) do we continue to fight to get RHAT's internal changes externalized
Nov 13 14:14:14 <mspevack> max -- "didn't the board say a month or so ago that if we didn't get progress by 11/15, we'd move on our own?"
Nov 13 14:16:28 <mspevack> blizzard -- "instead of worrying about manpower, what if we took what is brew today and set it up outside?"
Nov 13 14:16:36 <mspevack> jesse -- "would require a fair bit of rewrite"
Nov 13 14:17:20 <mspevack> max -- comparative effort between implementing our own stuff on top of plague vs. getting RHAT's internal code ready for release?
Nov 13 14:17:28 <mspevack> jesse -- "about the same:
Nov 13 14:17:41 <mspevack> bill -- "are we allowed to take RHAT's internal code and put it out?"
Nov 13 14:18:37 <mspevack> what we have heard is that the blocking factor is resources to get the existing code released.
Nov 13 14:18:48 <mspevack> bill -- either way, we have very specific needs. so let's enumerate them
Nov 13 14:19:14 <mspevack> brew has extra stuff that fedora doesn't need:
Nov 13 14:19:20 <mspevack> - sarbox stuff
Nov 13 14:19:25 <mspevack> - additional tracking
Nov 13 14:19:41 <mspevack> - metadata that's useful for packages that customers are paying money for
Nov 13 14:19:43 <mspevack> - etc.
Nov 13 14:19:53 <jwb> why isn't that useful for fedora?
Nov 13 14:20:00 <mspevack> that's what blizzard just asked
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Nov 13 14:20:50 * thl will be afk now, sorry for leaving
Nov 13 14:20:50 <mspevack> jesse -- "difference it makes is in bloat and slowdown, getting information out of build and into database, rate at which database will grow. problems we are dealing with internally"
Nov 13 14:20:54 <thl> hae fun everyone
Nov 13 14:21:00 <mspevack> all package header metadata is imported
Nov 13 14:21:12 <mspevack> what I am hearing is that there's a lot of data
Nov 13 14:21:16 <mspevack> all being tracked
Nov 13 14:21:16 --- thl is now known as thl_afk
Nov 13 14:21:24 <mspevack> not necessarily being done in the best way possible internally
Nov 13 14:21:45 <mspevack> and it needs to be fixed. so it would be nice to fix these problems in our Fedora work, rather than inherit new problems
Nov 13 14:21:58 <mspevack> jesse -- "not sure how much of this stuff can just be turned off either"
Nov 13 14:22:22 <mspevack> jeremy -- what features are necessary?
Nov 13 14:22:33 <mspevack> VERY BASIC
Nov 13 14:22:39 <mspevack> 1) build package via mock
Nov 13 14:22:41 <mspevack> 2) queue packages
Nov 13 14:22:47 <mspevack> 3) import package metadata into database
Nov 13 14:23:08 <mspevack> 1) build package via mock from SCM
Nov 13 14:23:15 <mspevack> 4) import build info
Nov 13 14:23:42 <mspevack> question -- optional arches?
Nov 13 14:24:24 <mspevack> dan -- code exists for enablign optional builds on secondary arches, it just isn't enabled right now
Nov 13 14:24:49 * nirik thinks there might be a lot of tie in with this and the package database: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/PackageDatabase
Nov 13 14:25:02 * mspevack just asked that same question
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Nov 13 14:25:18 <mspevack> 5) package owner tracking, multiple owners
Nov 13 14:25:44 <mspevack> answer is "it's a very similar idea, and one *good* canonical package database can serve multiple purposes"
Nov 13 14:26:01 <mspevack> 5a) "owner" tracking by tag/arch/etc
Nov 13 14:27:36 <mspevack> *various conversation around these bullet points*
Nov 13 14:27:51 <mspevack> ACLs around tags
Nov 13 14:28:08 >jabra< hey man see my email?
Nov 13 14:28:11 <mspevack> 6) tagless builds
Nov 13 14:28:29 <mspevack> which are basically "scratch builds" that don't go into any collection
Nov 13 14:29:04 <mspevack> blizzard would like these to be called "personal builds" because of the mindset that implies, and mspevack nods in agreement
Nov 13 14:29:35 <mspevack> 7) chain builds
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Nov 13 14:31:54 <mspevack> 8) integrate with "fedora identity management"
Nov 13 14:32:17 <mspevack> and that needs to be a black box, making no assumptions on what the account system is at any given time
Nov 13 14:32:24 * mspevack knows that we're going to talk about OpenID later on :-)
Nov 13 14:32:25 <Lovechild> mspevack: that sounds awfully buzzwordy
Nov 13 14:32:44 <mspevack> Lovechild: today it's the fedora account system, tomorrow it could be something else (like openid)
Nov 13 14:32:57 * mmcgrath is on the bridge
Nov 13 14:33:05 <mspevack> and we'd like any build system <-> account system communication not tie us into any sort of corner
Nov 13 14:33:23 <mspevack> whether it's openID or not doesn't matter -- we want to be able to move to *something else* without too much pain
Nov 13 14:33:28 <mspevack> Lovechild: better? :-)
Nov 13 14:34:06 <Lovechild> I guess.. I'm not one to comment on that type of issue anyways.. it just sounded like marketing invaded or something
Nov 13 14:34:14 <mspevack> LDAP is a likely delivery mechinism for credentials
Nov 13 14:34:16 <mspevack> Lovechild: heh :-)
Nov 13 14:35:27 <mspevack> 9) delivery mechanism
Nov 13 14:36:20 <mspevack> 10) multilib logic, then compose tools can pull from a single place
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Nov 13 14:37:18 <mspevack> *continued discussion*
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Nov 13 14:37:27 <mspevack> basically we're trying to make a list of the things a build system needs
Nov 13 14:37:38 <mspevack> then we're going to figure out what of that exists *somewhere*
Nov 13 14:38:04 <mspevack> then we'll see whether it makes more sense to force RHAT code into the open, or write new code in the open to begin with, that will serve our needs
Nov 13 14:38:13 * mspevack just listens for a while
Nov 13 14:38:51 <Lovechild> so long as we won't be chasing the opening of that code forever..
Nov 13 14:39:07 <mspevack> Lovechild: no, we will not. i'm tired of waiting.
Nov 13 14:39:41 <mspevack> what i want is a specific "we can release the code if you get us X engineering heads to do it" or "we'll never release the code, rewrite it yourselves" that answer should not take long to get
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Nov 13 14:40:43 <Lovechild> that sounds reasonable and quite easy to get.. a black or white answer type thing.. if they don't want to give it to us at least they could stop us from wasting time.. easy to understand and respect
Nov 13 14:40:54 <mspevack> *nod*
Nov 13 14:43:29 <mspevack> some conversation about arches, which we table for later on
Nov 13 14:43:41 <mspevack> now we're going through our feature list and understanding what already exists, and what doesn't
Nov 13 14:44:16 <Lovechild> if we do get that code what is the time horizon in terms of hacking it to suit fedora... something we can do within the fc7 cycle or longer term?
Nov 13 14:44:42 <mspevack> best estimate we've heard so far is "a couple of man months"
Nov 13 14:44:51 <mspevack> which means we need to know what our course of action is pretty much ASAP
Nov 13 14:44:52 <Lovechild> excellent guessimate
Nov 13 14:44:53 <mspevack> like before Xmas
Nov 13 14:45:07 <mspevack> Lovechild: i trust that was sarcastic :)
Nov 13 14:45:43 <Lovechild> mspevack: with an uncertain status I think a couple of man months sounds reasonable.. so no..
Nov 13 14:45:52 <mspevack> ah, ok
Nov 13 14:45:59 <Lovechild> reasonable but brave
Nov 13 14:46:08 <mspevack> 11) access to build root on failure
Nov 13 14:46:29 <mspevack> bill -- we should ship a Fedora build configuration for mock
Nov 13 14:46:34 <mspevack> jesse -- we have it in makefiles
Nov 13 14:46:53 <mspevack> max -- then we need to make it better and/or make sure people know about it
Nov 13 14:47:12 <mspevack> hey folks on IRC -- what are we missing. What do you folks who do so much packaging for us need?
Nov 13 14:47:18 <mspevack> help us fill out the list.
Nov 13 14:49:15 <graveyard> mspevack: some more up-to-date info about plague would be nice
Nov 13 14:49:21 <ChitleshGoorah> a possible way to upload and request builds via port 80
Nov 13 14:49:24 <mspevack> build packages via mock (in both plague and brew)
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Nov 13 14:49:32 <mspevack> queue builds (both plague and brew)
Nov 13 14:49:39 <mspevack> import buildinfo (BREW ONLY)
Nov 13 14:50:00 <mspevack> owner tracking by packages (BREW ONLY)
Nov 13 14:50:06 <ChitleshGoorah> in my hostel, only port80 is open and I have so much kde rpms to share
Nov 13 14:50:28 <mspevack> tagless builds (brew and plague)
Nov 13 14:50:40 <mspevack> optional arches (NEITHER)
Nov 13 14:50:48 <mspevack> personal collections (BREW ONLY)
Nov 13 14:50:57 <mspevack> integrate with identity management (plague)
Nov 13 14:51:03 <mspevack> delivery mechanism (neither, really)
Nov 13 14:51:09 <mspevack> they require distill or rsync
Nov 13 14:51:17 <mspevack> distill == RHAT's compose tool
Nov 13 14:51:31 <mspevack> builders in different locations (plagues)
Nov 13 14:51:52 <mspevack> graveyard: like what?
Nov 13 14:52:13 <graveyard> the config example for plague-client on the wiki is outdated
Nov 13 14:52:46 * mspevack will mention the IRC stuff in a break in the conversation
Nov 13 14:53:09 <graveyard> and maybe some info on what to do if you get "insufficient privileges" errors
Nov 13 14:53:23 <graveyard> but that may be just me :-)
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Nov 13 14:53:57 <mspevack> access to build root on failure (NEITHER does it right)
Nov 13 14:54:30 <Lovechild> didn't lmacken have some specific input to the requirements at a higher level to provide nice metadata for stuff like security and the likes.. dunno if that's appliable to this debate
Nov 13 14:55:00 --- [lmacken] is away (away)
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Nov 13 14:58:39 <mspevack> *much technical conversation that i won't even try to type in real time*
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Nov 13 14:59:52 <mspevack> chitlesh: does it have to be port 80, or could it be port 443?
Nov 13 14:59:59 <mspevack> sounds like a firewall issue
Nov 13 15:00:18 <chitlesh> yes its a firewall, out of my control
Nov 13 15:00:47 <mspevack> lmacken's work falls under delivery mechnism, right now it's all done out of band after the build process.
Nov 13 15:00:55 <chitlesh> i can't say exactly but we might test some day
Nov 13 15:00:57 <mmcgrath> chitlesh: http://www.publicproxyservers.com/ ?
Nov 13 15:01:24 <chitlesh> mmcgrath: I can't tunnel anywhere!
Nov 13 15:01:42 <mmcgrath> oh :\
Nov 13 15:02:05 <chitlesh> even irc i can't connect except cgi-irc
Nov 13 15:02:48 <greendisease> chitlesh: damn, where is this? a university?
Nov 13 15:03:02 <chitlesh> a hostel
Nov 13 15:03:08 <greendisease> ahh
Nov 13 15:03:12 <greendisease> not even https?
Nov 13 15:03:17 <nirik> chitlesh: not even openvpn's http proxy support? (This is off topic tho, so perhaps move to another channel for discussion?)
Nov 13 15:03:41 <chitlesh> well better talk about this latter on
Nov 13 15:03:42 <quaid> mspevack: docs and trans need some hooks into the build process, which are best defined by what is going to be done and what we have in docs/trans right now
Nov 13 15:03:55 <quaid> mainly I mention so as to have you throw in a couple of staffing weeks to get the hooks included
Nov 13 15:04:12 <quaid> the code that exists inside RH has been approved for release, but resources prevent us from doing it.
Nov 13 15:04:15 <mmcgrath> heh
Nov 13 15:04:20 * mspevack states quaid's points
Nov 13 15:04:47 <quaid> we wouldn't necc. mind being more better hooked in, but it may not make sense.
Nov 13 15:04:52 <mspevack> quaid: do you need hooks into build process, or into source control that manages what gets built?
Nov 13 15:05:00 <quaid> e.g. we can have our own "docs rawhide" that is different form the RPMs that are built from docs
Nov 13 15:05:11 <quaid> yeah, that is kind of my answer
Nov 13 15:05:29 <quaid> we may not need to be hooked into the build, but at the same time ... maybe we should be
Nov 13 15:05:46 <quaid> I can see now that the RHEL docs are being integrated into the packages in some fashion
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Nov 13 15:06:02 <mspevack> quaid: we're going to devote a specific chunk of time to all docs later on, we will revisit then. Jesse's trying to reach some sort of "grand point" right now :-)
Nov 13 15:06:11 <mspevack> docs, i18n, etc.
Nov 13 15:06:14 <quaid> so if we are going to have an connection to that, it means we need to treat our XML like source in the VCS and be part of the packaging love
Nov 13 15:06:27 <quaid> mspevack: roger that, it's related yet stand-alone
Nov 13 15:07:01 <quaid> just if ... well, maybe someone in that room grok's what Red Hat ECS is doing here so could tell us if we need a consideration as part of f13's point or not :)
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Nov 13 15:07:44 <mspevack> i think there's a good deal of ? above people's head right now. we have a "list of questions that need to be answered"
Nov 13 15:07:53 <mspevack> we're going to get paul gampe on the phone
Nov 13 15:08:06 <mspevack> quaid: why don't you call in?
Nov 13 15:09:00 <quaid> sure
Nov 13 15:09:16 <mspevack> i msg you the info
Nov 13 15:10:16 <mspevack> ok, wrapping up (except for karsten)
Nov 13 15:10:35 <mspevack> jesse -- we believe that we now have a list of things that we need for the next release, or else life will be awful
Nov 13 15:10:42 <mspevack> davej - are we prepared to hold up the release?
Nov 13 15:10:54 <mspevack> blizzard -- will require a great job of controlling scope
Nov 13 15:11:21 <mspevack> from the phone -- infra team needs a MUCH BETTER picture of priorities
Nov 13 15:12:06 * quaid is here
Nov 13 15:12:24 <quaid> that is, on the phone :)
Nov 13 15:12:40 <warren> quaid, was your earlier question related to alexandria?
Nov 13 15:14:18 <Lovechild> well if we start the transistion we can't very well halt in the middle can we, we have to hold up the release or the infrastructure to release won't be there... rgiht?
Nov 13 15:15:59 <mspevack> jesse adds to the board -- collection inheritance (tag builds for multiple collections)
Nov 13 15:16:14 <mspevack> (BREW)
Nov 13 15:18:17 * quaid is off now
Nov 13 15:18:18 <codergeek42_> Brew still? I thought Core was also transitioning to Mock like Extras. (?)
Nov 13 15:18:30 <jwb> brew and plague both use mock
Nov 13 15:18:38 <mspevack> codergeek42_: we're making a list of stuff in brew that we need to get into plague
Nov 13 15:18:40 <codergeek42_> Ah. Thanks for the clarification.
Nov 13 15:18:45 <quaid> warren: hee hee, i should have remembered the name since I think i made it up in Fedora almost 2 year ago :)
Nov 13 15:19:18 <mspevack> also on the board -- "packages in build root but not in a collection" (BREW)
Nov 13 15:21:34 <mspevack> --- BREAK TIME ---
Nov 13 15:21:45 --- mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 3:30 restart on "source infrastructure"
Nov 13 15:22:03 <lmacken> it is kind of hard to hear some of you guys
Nov 13 15:22:10 <mspevack> we will speak up
Nov 13 15:22:12 <mmcgrath> mspevack: I missed the part about OpenID. When will that be discussed?
Nov 13 15:22:13 <lmacken> it kind of just chopped off towards the end
Nov 13 15:22:16 <mspevack> we're on mute right now
Nov 13 15:22:27 <mspevack> mmcgrath: open ID is our starting point tomorrow morning at 10:00ish
Nov 13 15:22:35 <spot> mspevack: any chance we'll be talking about architecture tiering today?
Nov 13 15:22:39 <dgilmore> mspevack: when is the sub arch stuff going to happen?
Nov 13 15:22:58 <spot> i can't actually attend on tuesday or wednesday. :/
Nov 13 15:23:03 <mspevack> sub arch?
Nov 13 15:23:12 <mmcgrath> mspevack: I've been contacted about OpenID from Greg Dekoenigsberg, don't know if he should be on the bridge or not. Just letting you know.
Nov 13 15:23:13 <mspevack> like 4 people said "sub arch???"
Nov 13 15:23:23 <spot> mspevack: primary arch = x86, x86_64, sub arch = sparc, ppc, ia64, etc
Nov 13 15:23:25 <mspevack> mmcgrath: yeah, you should be for sure. can you make tomorrow at 10?
Nov 13 15:23:36 <mspevack> spot: we can do that after the source conversation
Nov 13 15:23:39 <mspevack> so later this afternoon
Nov 13 15:23:41 <spot> ok
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Nov 13 15:23:48 --- mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 3:30 restart on "source infrastructure", then primary/sub arches
Nov 13 15:24:03 <mmcgrath> mspevack: yeah, I can be there.
Nov 13 15:24:11 <dgilmore> mspevack: can you ping me when doing sub arches
Nov 13 15:24:15 --- mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- 3:30 topic is source infrastructure, then primary/sub arches, openID 10:00 tuesday
Nov 13 15:24:18 <dgilmore> ill call back in
Nov 13 15:24:21 <mspevack> dgilmore: yes
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Nov 13 15:24:28 * mspevack takes a quick afk break
Nov 13 15:27:54 * mspevack has decided (and those on the FPB in person have voted yes) that we shall start doing this pseudo-realtime IRC logging for our board calls
Nov 13 15:29:39 <jwb> mspevack, that would be very nice
Nov 13 15:29:43 <glezos> mspevack, good idea
Nov 13 15:30:23 <abadger1999> mspevack: Great!
Nov 13 15:30:44 <-- gregdek has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Nov 13 15:31:06 <spot> hooray!
Nov 13 15:31:24 <abadger1999> It'll improve what we outsiders can see the FPB doing.
Nov 13 15:31:30 <graveyard> cool!
Nov 13 15:31:38 <codergeek42_> great idea :D
Nov 13 15:31:56 <quaid> even where I have zero input, I feel as if I'm part of the process when that is done
Nov 13 15:32:23 <spot> i would say that we'd like to see the Shadow Core Cabal do the same thing, but we're in the process of making them obsolete. ;)
Nov 13 15:32:45 <mspevack> spot: yeah, hopefully there won't *BE* a shadow core cabal for much longer
Nov 13 15:33:15 <f13> spot: the shadow core cabal meetings happen in the carpool to and from the office (:
Nov 13 15:33:27 <jwb> spot, that's an interesting point because it has implications for FESCo as well
Nov 13 15:33:45 <mspevack> OK, STARTING AGAIN -----------------
Nov 13 15:33:48 <mspevack> Source control
Nov 13 15:33:54 <mspevack> conversation being led by Jeremy Katz
Nov 13 15:33:58 <mspevack> mspevack is still the IRC bitch
Nov 13 15:34:03 <mspevack> f13 is secondary IRC bitch
Nov 13 15:34:04 <spot> phone is on mute!
Nov 13 15:34:14 <f13> we're waiting for blizzard
Nov 13 15:34:14 <mspevack> phone is active!
Nov 13 15:34:14 * warren tertiary IRC bitch
Nov 13 15:34:36 <mspevack> on the phone -- spot, luke, WHO?
Nov 13 15:35:01 <mspevack> source control -- where we are today:
Nov 13 15:35:03 <abadger1999> mspevack: Toshio
Nov 13 15:35:09 <f13> dist-cvs
Nov 13 15:35:23 <f13> (we're ignoring that core and extras are in different repos)
Nov 13 15:35:25 <mspevack> phone -- also toshio and jwb who is lurking :-)
Nov 13 15:35:33 <jwb> :)
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Nov 13 15:36:07 <mspevack> we face all the normal warts of CVS (branch issues, etc) but it *works*
Nov 13 15:36:21 <mspevack> jeremy "i'm going out on a limb and say that this isn't the big problem that stops us from making all our bigger progress"
Nov 13 15:36:34 <mspevack> greg "i mostly agree, but does this make it easier or harder to move changes back and forth between fedora and rhel"
Nov 13 15:36:44 <mspevack> bill "if we move core into what is basically extras, it will be harder"
Nov 13 15:36:52 <mspevack> jesse "even harder if we move to another external source system
Nov 13 15:37:23 <mspevack> jeremy "not a major blocker, but we do want to be making progress on it"
Nov 13 15:37:35 <mspevack> would we hold up fedora release for solutions?
Nov 13 15:37:39 <mspevack> build system problems-- yes
Nov 13 15:37:43 <mspevack> source control-- no
Nov 13 15:38:30 <mspevack> issues if we move "core" to "extras"
Nov 13 15:38:44 <mspevack> 1) break access for large number of people inside RH who don't have fedora accounts
Nov 13 15:39:19 <mspevack> (a self-correcting problem. needs to be addressed because these are potential political problems)
Nov 13 15:40:35 <mspevack> 2) incremental pain of 2 cvsroots
Nov 13 15:40:46 <mspevack> bill -- "what's going to happen to cvs.f.r.c when we dump external load on it"
Nov 13 15:41:09 <mspevack> max -- "can't we just buy new boxes?"
Nov 13 15:41:20 <mspevack> bill -- "yes, we just won't know what we need immediately"
Nov 13 15:41:27 <mspevack> but regardless, there is money for boxes
Nov 13 15:41:44 <jbowes> moneybags spevack
Nov 13 15:41:59 <blizzard> finding change in the couch
Nov 13 15:42:15 <mspevack> jbowes: not after buying lunch for this crew today :-)
Nov 13 15:42:33 <mspevack> ok, back to the topic at hand
Nov 13 15:42:39 <mspevack> *discussion about ACLs*
Nov 13 15:42:43 <mspevack> we have them in internal CVS
Nov 13 15:42:46 <mspevack> but not in external CVS
Nov 13 15:42:52 <mspevack> bill -- 2 levels of ACLs
Nov 13 15:42:58 <mspevack> you have to be in a particular group
Nov 13 15:43:04 <mspevack> and then there are ACLs per directory
Nov 13 15:43:13 <f13> 'in a particular group to access cvs at all'
Nov 13 15:44:23 <mspevack> gregdek -- "why do we need acls"
Nov 13 15:44:44 <mspevack> in theory -- to keep people from just throwing stuff in willy-nilly
Nov 13 15:45:59 <|DrJef|> mspevack, is that a real problem currently.. or is that still a percieved problem?
Nov 13 15:46:22 <Lovechild> also it makes people feel important when they are trusted with more destructive abilities
Nov 13 15:46:37 <mspevack> hang on. i'm talking and i can't type at the same time :-/
Nov 13 15:46:52 <f13> |DrJef|: its percieved because we don't have core packages external.
Nov 13 15:46:56 <mspevack> max -- I want people to be able to check in changes, see what happens, etc. without affecting the "official" code
Nov 13 15:47:07 <f13> |DrJef|: we havne't had to deal with the 'feature war' between multiple developers and a hot package, like the kernel.
Nov 13 15:47:10 <mspevack> many folks -- "max, that's more of a long-term goal"
Nov 13 15:47:16 <-- chitlesh has quit ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
Nov 13 15:47:21 <mspevack> "but distributed source control will give us that"
Nov 13 15:47:24 <|DrJef|> f13, no experience of that in extras yet?
Nov 13 15:47:43 <mspevack> distributed SCM helps with "personal branches"
Nov 13 15:47:46 <f13> |DrJef|: there has been a few blowups
Nov 13 15:48:31 <|DrJef|> f13, i want to make sure we balance acl's with reasonably good mulit-maintainer encouragement..so we don't see acl's cause more problems than they solve
Nov 13 15:48:39 <mspevack> RESOLVED -- everyone needs to work 24x7
Nov 13 15:48:50 <lmacken> :)
Nov 13 15:48:51 <mmcgrath> mspevack: done ;-)
Nov 13 15:49:14 * stickster_work has infarction and keels over
Nov 13 15:49:27 <mspevack> *conversation around political pressure around changing SCM*
Nov 13 15:49:33 <mspevack> and what is more important
Nov 13 15:49:43 <mspevack> if we can only get *so much* RHAT buy in, what would we rather have?
Nov 13 15:49:45 <mspevack> build system or SCM?
Nov 13 15:49:49 <mspevack> answer seems to be build system
Nov 13 15:50:01 <mspevack> because we can sort of subversively do our SCM work off on the side
Nov 13 15:50:12 <mspevack> f13: care to expand?
Nov 13 15:50:29 <mspevack> and... SCM is something that it's much easier to get FESCO help with
Nov 13 15:50:54 <mspevack> stickster_work: up off the mat, boy!
Nov 13 15:50:58 <mspevack> s/mat/matt
Nov 13 15:51:04 <mspevack> er no, i got it right the first time
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Nov 13 15:51:50 <mspevack> jesse can get dist-git up within a few days
Nov 13 15:52:06 <mspevack> main idea -- "pepsi challenge" between our SCM options
Nov 13 15:52:25 <jwb> pepsi challenges are rife with fanboys
Nov 13 15:52:29 * mspevack thinks dist-pen-and-paper will lose
Nov 13 15:53:12 <greendisease> dist-rock-paper-scissors
Nov 13 15:53:17 <mspevack> in most of the conversations I listen to, Hg seems to have the most love.
Nov 13 15:53:23 * mspevack will interrupt the IRL conversation shortly
Nov 13 15:53:25 <jwb> yes
Nov 13 15:53:56 * stickster_work notes that he has only a casual acquaintance with Mr. Domsch, thank you very much
Nov 13 15:55:22 <mspevack> jesse really wants to go through the experience of setting up several different SCM repos, and see how the workflow *actually goes* with these before just "making a choice"
Nov 13 15:55:28 <mspevack> but ultimately, it will end up being jesse's choice
Nov 13 15:55:33 <mspevack> for the most part
Nov 13 15:55:50 <jwb> f13, just remember that the initial pain of doing the import really isn't indicative of how it's going to be used
Nov 13 15:56:01 <f13> thats not my decision maker
Nov 13 15:56:07 <jwb> figured
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Nov 13 15:56:16 <f13> my decision maker is people using the proof of concepts and running into gotchas/issues
Nov 13 15:56:19 * nirik doesn't much care which one, as long as it works. The rest of the buildsys/infrastructure shouldn't care or should be easily changed for new SCM's
Nov 13 15:57:09 <mspevack> people are talking about quilt now
Nov 13 15:57:37 <mspevack> my personal opinion -- there's always a "new" version control system that everyone loves. Just find one of the current ones (like Hg) that makes lots of people happy and let's get on with it already
Nov 13 15:57:42 <f13> talking about longer term bigger pictures of what we can do with new scms.
Nov 13 15:57:46 <jwb> quilt isn't an SCM
Nov 13 15:57:54 * mspevack has never heard of quilt!
Nov 13 15:58:00 <jwb> you'd need quilt + <something>
Nov 13 15:58:06 <f13> jwb: QUILT as a way of managing your patches for a package
Nov 13 15:58:07 * mspevack is such a PHB
Nov 13 15:58:11 <ajax> both git and hg have quilt integration
Nov 13 15:58:14 <f13> jwb: quilt plugins for hg and git
Nov 13 15:58:28 <jwb> f13, STgit for git. forget what it is for hg
Nov 13 15:58:34 <f13> Mq
Nov 13 15:58:48 <mspevack> blizzard -- "i want to help users kick ass right now. how do we do that without making dave jones' life hell?"
Nov 13 15:58:49 <ajax> imagine if working with patches in spec files wasn't incredibly freakin' painful. that's more or less what quilt does.
Nov 13 15:59:07 <jwb> quilt is yummy
Nov 13 15:59:25 <jwb> %prep
Nov 13 15:59:28 <jwb> quilt push -a
Nov 13 15:59:30 <jwb> ;)
Nov 13 15:59:41 <jwb> doh, forgot the setup part
Nov 13 15:59:52 <mspevack> jesse -- different way of doing source control can make it much easier to track changes, and who is making them
Nov 13 16:00:02 <mspevack> which helps jesse do his job
Nov 13 16:01:16 <mspevack> greg -- let's just get some technical work items listed
Nov 13 16:01:31 <mspevack> bill -- we agree that:
Nov 13 16:01:45 <mspevack> 1) we're going to take all the packages in Core and put them in the same CVS root as Extras
Nov 13 16:02:08 <mspevack> only question is when?
Nov 13 16:02:13 <mspevack> - before build system is ready
Nov 13 16:02:16 <mspevack> - after?
Nov 13 16:02:19 <mspevack> - at the same time?
Nov 13 16:02:26 <mspevack> question -- can the build system handle things before?
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Nov 13 16:02:38 <mspevack> jeremy -- can't do it before the build system is ready.
Nov 13 16:02:45 <mspevack> jesse -- we'd lose the ability to build packages!
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Nov 13 16:03:09 <mspevack> problem is -- "does package FOO have to be built with brew or plague"
Nov 13 16:03:14 <mspevack> bill -- so what can we move RIGHT NOW?
Nov 13 16:03:30 <mspevack> jesse -- any package with an owner who's ready to take the plunge with getting their package reviewed for Extras
Nov 13 16:04:00 <mspevack> can we stop new additions from being made to Core, as much as possible?
Nov 13 16:04:03 <nirik> reviewed? so all the core packages will need reviews? could take a while, given lack of reviewers...
Nov 13 16:04:30 <jbowes> a lot of them need to be reviewed
Nov 13 16:04:37 <f13> adsfasfd
Nov 13 16:04:46 <mspevack> nirik: we'll come back to that shortly
Nov 13 16:05:02 <mspevack> jesse -- need to make a decision
Nov 13 16:05:03 <nirik> agreed, but if we want to finish before fc7, there might need to be some more reviewers. ;)
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Nov 13 16:05:21 <spot> if i'm supplied with good food and drink, i can beat through a massive amt of reviews
Nov 13 16:05:25 <spot> just like in the olden days. ;)
Nov 13 16:05:37 <mspevack> can next release test composes be from both Core and Extras? If not, then we can't just let everything move over
Nov 13 16:05:43 * nirik cheers spot on... :)
Nov 13 16:05:57 <Lovechild> spot: I'll sponsor the coffee
Nov 13 16:06:10 <mspevack> but in the near term, for example, if "rex wants to start reviewing kde packages to move into Extras, that's fine"
Nov 13 16:06:10 <f13> We need to keep things internal that are needed to complete other builds.
Nov 13 16:06:22 <f13> leaf node packages can go to Extras now.
Nov 13 16:06:25 <f13> new packages go to Extras
Nov 13 16:06:36 <mspevack> TO DO
Nov 13 16:07:02 <mspevack> 1) drive creation of fedora accounts for all red hat engineering
Nov 13 16:08:06 <mspevack> issues around "people sponsorship"
Nov 13 16:09:37 <mspevack> RHAT engineers will now *HAVE TO* take their packages, follow guidelines, etc that they haven't necessarily had to pay any attention to before
Nov 13 16:09:47 <mspevack> max is concerned about FESCO feeling like they still have leadership
Nov 13 16:11:00 <nirik> so does FESCO go away now and FAB is in charge of all? or ?
Nov 13 16:11:06 <f13> no
Nov 13 16:11:06 <mspevack> no
Nov 13 16:11:08 <mspevack> NONONONO
Nov 13 16:11:32 <mspevack> concern -- "red hat engineers feel a sense of entitlement that they can do whatever they want"
Nov 13 16:11:46 <mspevack> and making sure that doesn't happen
Nov 13 16:11:50 <f13> We have to have clear messaging that Rh employees are not perfect.
Nov 13 16:11:57 <f13> lets use the bind spec as an example.
Nov 13 16:12:20 <mmcgrath> f13 :-P
Nov 13 16:12:55 <mspevack> jeremy -- we just have to deal with the incremental pain of 2 cvs roots
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Nov 13 16:15:30 <mspevack> phone -- who is talking? -- divide packages into groups, rather than people, when it comes to contributions
Nov 13 16:15:50 <mspevack> luke said that
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Nov 13 16:16:02 <mspevack> but he said it much better than i did
Nov 13 16:16:54 <mspevack> package database needs to support multiple people associated with a package
Nov 13 16:17:23 <mdomsch_> per distro / release
Nov 13 16:18:48 <mspevack> *discussion around the actual mechanism of moving hundreds and hundreds of packages from core to extras*
Nov 13 16:19:28 <mspevack> do we need to review before we move, or move and then tag them as "reviewed" or "not"
Nov 13 16:19:39 <mspevack> second way is probably easier, even though we know a mass import is bad
Nov 13 16:19:49 <mspevack> basically, we don't want stuff to drag out forever
Nov 13 16:20:18 <quaid> give ppl 2 week to get their stuff fixed ebefore mass import?
Nov 13 16:21:39 <Lovechild> quaid: maybe send out a message to Extras at the same time asking for all the help people can give us during those 2 weeks?
Nov 13 16:21:58 <mspevack> 2 stage process
Nov 13 16:22:10 <mspevack> 1 -- anyone who has a package that can get moved should go for it
Nov 13 16:22:14 <quaid> Lovechild: well, yes, but I think the real help is going to be needed _after_ the two weeks when the mass import has been done but none are reviewed yet :_
Nov 13 16:22:21 <mspevack> 2 -- later on, once build system is ready, we have a mass move and review system
Nov 13 16:22:32 <mspevack> *some discussion about the details of that system, which don't need to be typed*
Nov 13 16:24:30 <mspevack> bill -- there is going to be some subset of packages that are in core now, that given the choice between moving to extras or being orphaned, they'll be orphaned
Nov 13 16:25:56 * quaid cheers that idea
Nov 13 16:26:31 <nirik> might be nice to announce a list and see if there is anyone in the community that would like to take them over and push them into extras...
Nov 13 16:26:59 <mspevack> *nod*
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Nov 13 16:31:35 <mspevack> *max talks for a bit about political issues, basically "what steps can we take to make this have the best chance possible of getting RHAT buy in"
Nov 13 16:32:04 <mspevack> greg has been taking extensive notes, that will be placed on the wiki
Nov 13 16:33:14 <-- jrb has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
Nov 13 16:33:33 <mspevack> "move core to extras" --> Fedora Board mandate
Nov 13 16:33:42 <mspevack> "new scm" --> SIG with *fixed lifetime*
Nov 13 16:34:14 <mspevack> bill -- are we going to require sponsorship? things like this will run by FESCO at their next meeting
Nov 13 16:34:34 <mspevack> jeremy, warren, rex are all on FESCO
Nov 13 16:34:56 <jwb> mspevack, so are abadger1999 and jwb
Nov 13 16:35:24 <mspevack> cool, i was just doing a survey of who's in the room
Nov 13 16:35:30 <mspevack> i forgot about our phone lurkers
Nov 13 16:35:43 <mspevack> warren -- "i think fesco will like the plan, they just need to understand it"
Nov 13 16:36:31 <mspevack> getting some final action items down
Nov 13 16:36:36 <mspevack> getting ready for the next break
Nov 13 16:36:44 <mspevack> and then the next topic, which will be primary/sub arches
Nov 13 16:37:20 <mspevack> this was a good hour for Fedora :-)
Nov 13 16:38:23 <lmacken> ouch
Nov 13 16:39:22 <mspevack> question -- what's the future of FESCO (probably needs a different name), and some sort of public release team, which is the "fedora core cabal" getting made public and renamed
Nov 13 16:39:42 <mspevack> more on governance tomorrow
Nov 13 16:40:37 <mspevack> back at 16:50/16:55 for primary-sub arches
Nov 13 16:40:42 <mspevack> spot: does that work for you?
Nov 13 16:40:50 <spot> ok, sure.
Nov 13 16:40:58 <spot> i'll be back in 10.
Nov 13 16:40:58 <mspevack> BREAK TIME ==============
Nov 13 16:41:16 * mmcgrath has a crooked neck
Nov 13 16:41:40 <jwb> mmcgrath, speaker phone :)
Nov 13 16:42:47 * spot is trying to use his headset
Nov 13 16:42:59 <spot> but whenever someone on the phone speaks, i go deaf
Nov 13 16:43:40 <f13> gah
Nov 13 16:44:24 <mmcgrath> Whats on the agenda after the break?
Nov 13 16:44:33 <jwb> mmcgrath, arches
Nov 13 16:44:40 <dgilmore> mmcgrath: sparc
Nov 13 16:44:56 <jwb> dgilmore, more than that. anything not x86/x86_64
Nov 13 16:45:24 <dgilmore> jwb: i know being a smart alec
Nov 13 16:45:44 * jwb waves to corbet
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Nov 13 16:49:46 * lmacken heads out to go take a final
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Nov 13 16:52:58 <mspevack> ========= WE'RE BACK
Nov 13 16:53:02 <mspevack> arches and sub-arches
Nov 13 16:53:06 <mspevack> Bill Nottingham has the floor
Nov 13 16:53:35 --- mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- current topic is primary/sub arches || openID 10:00 tuesday, then governance questions, chat with tim burke/brian stevens
Nov 13 16:54:06 <mspevack> bill is writing on the white board
Nov 13 16:54:09 <mspevack> but i can't see it yet
Nov 13 16:54:11 <mspevack> ok
Nov 13 16:54:17 <mspevack> PRIMARY ARCHES -- x86, x86_64
Nov 13 16:54:21 <mspevack> SECONDARY --
Nov 13 16:54:33 <mspevack> for Fedora -- PPC, sparc, ia64
Nov 13 16:54:41 <mspevack> for RHEL -- ppc64, s390x, ia64
Nov 13 16:54:42 <-- rdieter1 has quit ("Konversation terminated!")
Nov 13 16:55:09 <mspevack> in Fedora, we treat PPC as primary arch *right now*
Nov 13 16:55:34 <mspevack> why we want to make PPC a secondary arch
Nov 13 16:55:44 <mspevack> "it is effectively without a maintainer and person who prods it to make it go"
Nov 13 16:55:53 <mspevack> "it complicates the testing matrix"
Nov 13 16:56:06 <Panzerboy> what does it mean "a secondary arch" ?
Nov 13 16:56:08 <mspevack> "ppc problems have always led to last minute respins, problems that have existed for a long time and no one has seen"
Nov 13 16:56:17 <mspevack> "torrent number show a tiny PPC usage"
Nov 13 16:56:20 <mspevack> "less than 1%"
Nov 13 16:56:47 <mspevack> Panzerboy: that is what we are about to present a proposal about
Nov 13 16:56:57 <mspevack> spot now has the floor
Nov 13 16:57:16 <mspevack> spot: send to max at spevack dot org
Nov 13 16:57:18 <mspevack> spot: i'm not on vpn
Nov 13 16:57:36 <Panzerboy> mspevack: ok
Nov 13 16:57:54 <mspevack> *brief lull as spot gets ready to speak*
Nov 13 16:57:54 <mspevack> standby
Nov 13 16:57:55 <mspevack> .....
Nov 13 16:58:51 <mspevack> spot: tried to look at what other distros are doing from an arch perspective.....
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Nov 13 16:59:12 <mspevack> Gentoo: Architecture Maintainers mark packages as stable for their
Nov 13 16:59:12 <mspevack> architecture, after testing.
Nov 13 16:59:20 <mspevack> Ubuntu: Key teams for coordinating release of architecture ports (AMD64,
Nov 13 16:59:20 <mspevack> PPC, IA64)
Nov 13 16:59:30 <mspevack> Slackware: Only official non x86 port is s390
Nov 13 16:59:57 <mspevack> some cut and paste from spot
Nov 13 16:59:59 <mspevack> =========
Nov 13 17:00:00 <mspevack> All arches attempt to build by default.
Nov 13 17:00:01 <mspevack> Primary architecture build failures stop the build.
Nov 13 17:00:01 <mspevack> Second architecture build failures don't stop, but architecture teams
Nov 13 17:00:01 <mspevack> are notified. Architecture teams are permitted to make changes to enable
Nov 13 17:00:01 <mspevack> their architecture to build, and request new builds. They will inform
Nov 13 17:00:02 <mspevack> the maintainer(s) of the package before doing so.
Nov 13 17:00:04 <mspevack> Architecture Teams should be able to mark the status of their
Nov 13 17:00:06 <mspevack> architecture (just because it built doesn't mean it works).
Nov 13 17:00:08 <mspevack> ExcludeArch settings should be signed off by the Architecture Team.
Nov 13 17:00:10 <mspevack> ============
Nov 13 17:00:26 <mspevack> Architecture Maintainers head up Architecture Teams
Nov 13 17:01:47 <mspevack> Arch Maintainer is the leader/accountable person
Nov 13 17:02:14 <mspevack> spot is talking about all of this on the phone
Nov 13 17:02:18 <mspevack> you guys just get to see it now
Nov 13 17:02:25 <mspevack> so there might not be much traffic for a little while
Nov 13 17:02:31 * mspevack goes into listen mode
Nov 13 17:05:53 <mspevack> question 1 -- are we going to be able to have external build boxes?
Nov 13 17:06:47 <mspevack> question 2 -- if they have to be internal, what will we do with boxes that don't belong to red hat?
Nov 13 17:26:32 <mspevack> putting together some plans for our goals for tomorrow
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Nov 13 17:38:39 * spot dropped off the call, thanks for giving me the time
Nov 13 17:39:09 <abadger1999> mspevack: Am I understanding that VCS is not going to change in the FC7 release time frame? (B/c we're going to experiment with workflows that are different from the CVS one?)
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Nov 13 17:40:11 <abadger1999> We're going to handle the merge in dist-cvs and implement the package DB. Then migrate to dist-{hg,git,bzr} at a later date?
Nov 13 17:40:29 <dgilmore> spot: thanks for your words
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Nov 13 17:41:38 <warren> abadger1999, not decided yet, fedora-scm SIG will be formed for further focused experimentation of VCS. FPB will mandate it soon with a limited life-time.
Nov 13 17:42:02 <abadger1999> warren: thx for the clarity.
Nov 13 17:42:42 <warren> abadger1999, I'm guessing the SCM SIG will be a mailing list and wiki. But the important part is a DEADLINE on the sig to disappear.
Nov 13 17:43:10 <mspevack> GOALS FOR TONIGHT
Nov 13 17:43:23 <mspevack> 1) pictures of white board on FedoraSummit (Jack)
Nov 13 17:43:31 <mspevack> 2) greg's notes onto FedoraSummit
Nov 13 17:43:46 <mspevack> 3) IRC log onto FedoraSummit (Jack)
Nov 13 17:43:59 <warren> 4) BLOG (Everyone)
Nov 13 17:44:12 <mspevack> 5) call setup for tomorrow (Max)
Nov 13 17:45:32 <jbowes> thanks for doing this IRC thing, fellers. It's informative
Nov 13 17:45:45 <mspevack> jbowes: we're glad
Nov 13 17:45:55 <mspevack> ======== ADJOURNED FOR THE DAY ===============
Nov 13 17:45:56 <-- warren has quit ("Leaving")
Nov 13 17:46:39 --- mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- openID 10:00 tuesday, then IS/IT discussion
Nov 13 17:47:05 --- mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- RESUME 10:00 Eastern Tuesday -- openID, then IS/IT discussion
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Nov 13 17:47:56 <glezos> yes, thanks for the streaming. was very informative on how things are, how we work as a project etc.
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Nov 13 18:01:47 <|DrJef|> now that its over i'm tempted to mst3k the irclog with all the smartass comments i refrained from making
Nov 13 18:02:25 <ajax> push the button, frank