From Fedora Project Wiki
| stickster | Hi folks, we're just waiting for our moderator to arrive. | 11:02 |
|---|---|---|
| stickster | Please give us just a couple minutes and we'll be ready to go. | 11:02 |
| -!- mizmo [n=duffy@nat/redhat/x-2f22018bb0f26a19] has joined #fedora-board-public | 11:02 | |
| -!- is6s [n=xpyttl@75-134-169-186.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has joined #fedora-board-public | 11:03 | |
| jds2001 | and why is snow such a good thing? | 11:03 |
| jds2001 | snow sucks, imo | 11:03 |
| jds2001 | yeah, i know i live in the wrong part of the country if i think that | 11:03 |
| stickster | Hi everyone | 11:04 |
| stickster | The fabulous Mairin Duffy (sorry, missing diacriticals) will be your moderator today | 11:04 |
| * JMakey claps | 11:04 | |
| mizmo | :) | 11:05 |
| * inode0 is too old for backflips but does one anyway | 11:05 | |
| mizmo | so does anyone have any questions for the board? | 11:05 |
| stickster | We'll be happy to take questions. mizmo will take care of bringing your questions to #fedora-board-meeting. | 11:05 |
| stickster | If you're not on that channel, you'll want to be. | 11:05 |
| stickster | That's where the Board will give its answers. | 11:05 |
| stickster | Feel free to discuss in here as needed! | 11:06 |
| stickster | OK, take it away mizmo | 11:06 |
| stickster | (and contributors -- ask away!) | 11:06 |
| * diauq is here in disguise to seed questions if needed | 11:06 | |
| diauq | darn, did I say that outloud? | 11:06 |
| mizmo | seed if you must :) | 11:06 |
| * inode0 wants to know why mizmo is not on the board? | 11:07 | |
| mizmo | hehe | 11:07 |
| ongolaBoy | hi, i'd like to know if with the creation of the SIG/server, we'll have a fedora 'server' release ? | 11:07 |
| diauq | inode0: you can nominate her | 11:07 |
| is6s | Probably cuz nobody can type her name | 11:07 |
| -!- joropo [n=joropo@64.89.242.56] has joined #fedora-board-public | 11:07 | |
| mizmo | or pronounce it lol | 11:07 |
| ongolaBoy | mizmo: by the way, i appreciate your work on art, it'z amazing | 11:08 |
| mizmo | thanks ongolaBoy :) | 11:08 |
| * inode0 heartily endorses mizmo for the board or anything else and would be honored to nominate her if she will run | 11:08 | |
| mizmo | i might think about it :) | 11:08 |
| mizmo | ongolaBoy, if you have any followups let me know! | 11:09 |
| is6s | The server SIG discussion and the excellent summary on FWN did bring up the need to somehow capture critical knowledge in some form more accessable than the HOWTOs | 11:09 |
| ongolaBoy | mizmo: ok | 11:10 |
| * ongolaBoy thinks that it could be a good idea to have @server in kickstart | 11:12 | |
| jds2001 | then you have the issue of defining what's in it. | 11:12 |
| inode0 | jds2001: I can provide you with the proper package list :) | 11:13 |
| mizmo | to lessen confusion im gonna post only items posed as questions in the board meeting channel | 11:13 |
| mizmo | so, let's play jeopardy : | 11:13 |
| mizmo | :) | 11:13 |
| jds2001 | inode0: your proper package list is different than mine, which is different from everyone else's | 11:14 |
| jds2001 | but like f13 said, what is it outside of @core and @base? | 11:14 |
| inode0 | sure, anything remotely close to begin with is an improvement | 11:15 |
| jds2001 | so if you make your way to fudcon i'm leading a session on comps | 11:16 |
| jds2001 | this is perfect fodder for such a discussion :) | 11:17 |
| jds2001 | is the "knowledge base" not the wiki? | 11:17 |
| mizmo | i can ask :) | 11:18 |
| jds2001 | I realize that search blows chunks, but we need to move to non-hierarchial naming to fix that. | 11:18 |
| is6s | spooleba has it exactly right | 11:20 |
| jds2001 | stickster: slap f13 :) | 11:20 |
| jds2001 | to f13, yes - there's an effort to renmae pages in a "MW-friendly" way | 11:22 |
| mizmo | (was that fair is6s | 11:22 |
| mizmo | ?) | 11:23 |
| is6s | nice guy - I'm already in the doc group -- but yeah, no reason I shouldnt be as much to blame as anyone else | 11:23 |
| jds2001 | and diauq has it :) | 11:23 |
| mizmo | does anyone have another question for the board? | 11:29 |
| mizmo | and i can queue it up | 11:29 |
| inode0 | usually I badger them with questions but I'm in such a happy mood today I don't really want to keep them :) | 11:30 |
| mizmo | hehe | 11:31 |
| * inode0 thanks the board for all their work and requests they keep mizmo's seat warm | 11:31 | |
| diauq | ok, let's turn the firehose on someone else's area ... | 11:31 |
| inode0 | maybe I should rephrase that | 11:31 |
| diauq | Q: ... caveat -- we know it is FESCo that sets the schedule for F11/F12, but recent discussions on f-a-b have shown an opinion split amongst people who are on the Board and are now or have been on FESCo, in other words ... the very people who need to reach a consensus. Is there any progress in thinking toward a consensus? | 11:31 |
| -!- jeremy [n=nnkatzj@nat/redhat/x-598b5ea2ffd5a217] has joined #fedora-board-public | 11:32 | |
| is6s | Is Paul gonna have fewer hats for F11 | 11:34 |
| -!- glezos [n=glezos@fedora/glezos] has joined #fedora-board-public | 11:34 | |
| mizmo | okay i've got two in the queue, waiting for the last topic to wrap up | 11:35 |
| diauq | is6s: for Docs, yes; we need to make ourselves redundant there or we've failed | 11:35 |
| is6s | I suspect your neck is getting a little sore from all the hats, too | 11:37 |
| mizmo | diauq, you can join #fedora-board-meeting to see the answer to your question (i just posted it) | 11:38 |
| mizmo | i can paste you a summary if you prefer | 11:38 |
| is6s | mizmo: he is, diff name | 11:38 |
| mizmo | oh okay | 11:38 |
| mizmo | (what's your other nick diauq?) | 11:39 |
| mizmo | oh | 11:39 |
| mizmo | haha | 11:39 |
| mizmo | wait a minute aren't u on the board??? | 11:39 |
| is6s | oh good, that will give us time to get the docs right | 11:40 |
| diauq | mizmo: diauq and quaid used to be the same person, but an IRC accident in 2001 split their personalities. | 11:41 |
| diauq | I am the evil half. | 11:41 |
| mizmo | diauq, dont you normally have a goatee? | 11:42 |
| jds2001 | and feedback we want :) | 11:42 |
| mizmo | in that case, what does the evil half have? | 11:42 |
| diauq | bald? | 11:42 |
| jds2001 | that being said, I personally think that Jesse's proposal is sane. | 11:42 |
| jds2001 | but if you can change my mind, then feel free :) | 11:43 |
| * ongolaBoy smiles about diauq/quaid personalities :) | 11:43 | |
| is6s | Neither - its predictability that important | 11:43 |
| glezos | diauq: I suppose you live in Tulsa or something. | 11:44 |
| diauq | glezos: ha! | 11:44 |
| is6s | Shoot, Jesse had it right then backed off | 11:45 |
| jds2001 | and if Jef sits on his hands, FESCo drops his feature. | 11:49 |
| jds2001 | pretty simple, really. | 11:50 |
| is6s | External folks need to know what they will get when. Better to track the features closely, develop the ability to estimate, and scope releases based on when features are highly probable | 11:50 |
| inode0 | heh, who decides anything is a fuzzball in Fedora ... as recent discussions about capturing some notions of Fedora's organization graphically indicates | 11:52 |
| diauq | inode0: we push decisions to the edge, that's the key | 11:52 |
| jds2001 | there are some things that are very clearly delineated as to "who owns what" | 11:52 |
| is6s | I still think we can do a lot better - but yeah, that is a good point. The trick is building out the tracking capability to do that predictabley | 11:53 |
| inode0 | diauq: this isn't a problem to me, just makes graphing something that captures some sense of organization require more creativity than I have | 11:54 |
| mizmo | i've got is6s's question " Is Paul gonna have fewer hats for F11" in the queue, if you have another question let me know | 11:54 |
| is6s | mizmo: That was just a poke | 11:54 |
| jds2001 | but I think a good one. | 11:55 |
| is6s | I feel sorry for Paul and Karsten both | 11:55 |
| mizmo | is6s, i can drop it if you want | 11:55 |
| is6s | its not important | 11:55 |
| mizmo | okie | 11:55 |
| mizmo | nothing in the queue then :) | 11:55 |
| is6s | I think this discussion is a good one, even if it is going entirely wrong-headed, but thats another discussion | 11:56 |
| diauq | predictability has to be evaluated as a value; that's part of what I am poking at. | 11:59 |
| diauq | we can say, "We are only going to be so predictable, deal with it." but let's not say we are predictable and then not be. | 11:59 |
| is6s | diauq: Yes, and it isn't a simple problem, but I think we can do a lot better | 11:59 |
| * inode0 likes mystery and surprises in his release dates :) | 12:00 | |
| inode0 | but it messes a lot of other stuff up | 12:00 |
| -!- duckunix [n=duck@c-98-195-153-66.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 12:00 | |
| is6s | jds2001: Sorry I missed you rcomment way up there - I think he does anyway by default | 12:03 |
| is6s | We should at least have an FMEA for the release at the start | 12:04 |
| -!- duckunix [n=duck@c-98-195-153-66.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #fedora-board-public | 12:04 | |
| jds2001 | FMEA? | 12:07 |
| is6s | Its a risk-management tool -- failure mode effect analysis -- pretty simple but it helps focus the risks | 12:08 |
| -!- ongolaBoy [n=chatzill@196.202.239.205] has left #fedora-board-public ["i should go, appreciate the meeting..."] | 12:10 | |
| inode0 | the board wandering is really helpful to voters in learning how sitting members think on the fly | 12:11 |
| is6s | we've burned our hour already, how did that happen | 12:11 |
| diauq | inode0: I think of the IRC meetings as a good chance to wander a bit, yes; to show where the lack of consensus turns into decisions, etc. | 12:15 |
| joropo | stickster: could a history of past releases schedules be developed? Rather that pontificate upon what *should* happen, can we gat a view of how things unfolded before?> | 12:16 |
| stickster | joropo: I believe someone's done that on one of the lists. | 12:17 |
| is6s | I think Poelstra blogged on tracking, I think we need to do a lot better at that, but it won't bear fruit for a few more releases | 12:17 |
| joropo | oh yeah? | 12:17 |
| joropo | 'k. I'll search. | 12:17 |
| joropo | polecat: tks | 12:18 |
| * joropo asked & answered. | 12:21 | |
| stickster | mizmo: Thank you very much for moderating today | 12:22 |
| mizmo | my pleasure :) | 12:22 |
| stickster | Thank you everyone for attending... some of the Board members may continue to hang out in this channel to talk | 12:22 |
| -!- skvidal [n=nnnnnnns@fedora/skvidal] has joined #fedora-board-public | 12:22 | |
| -!- JMakey [i=[lwKOy1i@darwin.sdsc.edu] has left #fedora-board-public ["thanks to mizmo and the board for their time and effort"] | 12:23 | |
| inode0 | mizmo: I'll send you something by this weekend to help you think about it :) | 12:23 |
| mizmo | inode0, okay hehe | 12:23 |
| * inode0 actually came today to encourage max to give us all lessons in community building - and he was off doing it I guess | 12:25 | |
| stickster | Max is on travel today, I believe. | 12:25 |
| is6s | f13 sounds like the old "developer as an artist" argument. Just because its hard doesn't mean you have to give up | 12:25 |
| skvidal | invading russia | 12:25 |
| * stickster scratching his head at "giving up" | 12:27 | |
| is6s | stickster: I think working hard to improve is valuable, and history is an important component, even if it isnt black and white | 12:27 |
| is6s | improve WRT schedule | 12:28 |
| stickster | is6s: So... who's giving up? | 12:28 |
| is6s | Jesse sounds a little like " you can't learn from past schedules because too many thing happen" | 12:28 |
| quaid | actually I think he was making an argument that things _have_ improved | 12:28 |
| is6s | Sure stuff happens, doesn't mean you throw away the learning | 12:28 |
| quaid | because we have been learning, and maybe | 12:29 |
| quaid | not to beat on them so much ":D | 12:29 |
| -!- f13 [n=jkeating@fedora/ender] has joined #fedora-board-public | 12:29 | |
| stickster | is6s: I think he said the opposite, actually | 12:29 |
| is6s | And yeah, the fact of the matter is even after all the stiff, F10 isn't all that far off | 12:29 |
| is6s | s/stiff/stuff | 12:29 |
| f13 | I'm somewhat paying attention, but it would help to use my nick so that I get a highlight if anything is wanted from me. | 12:29 |
| stickster | If you discount the 3 weeks thanks to the intrusion, we're only off by a week, which is pretty much de rigeur. | 12:29 |
| is6s | Yeah, really, pretty good | 12:30 |
| -!- gregm_ [n=gregm@207.109.253.59] has joined #fedora-board-public | 12:30 | |
| jeremy | stickster: you can't say from that, though, that we would have only been one week off without | 12:30 |
| is6s | No reason not to be better -- if only to reduce stress | 12:30 |
| quaid | yeah, i tell my wife that all the time -- "Think of how lame we were 10 years ago, and what we have accomplished since, and what we juggle now -- we _are_ better, and we _will_ continue to improve." | 12:30 |
| stickster | jeremy: No, I can't really say either way, that's true. | 12:30 |
| jeremy | stickster: and virtually every release has had its "thing" that we can attribute the delay to | 12:30 |
| quaid | diauq: get out of here or you will cause a rift in the space time continuum | 12:31 |
| -!- diauq [n=kwade@fedora/quaid] has quit [""... and FU to quaid, too""] | 12:31 | |
| is6s | Hence the need for an FMEA | 12:31 |
| jeremy | stickster: the fact of it is that the delays are remarkably consistent no matter what happens, what changes we put in place, etc | 12:31 |
| inode0 | it seems quite remarkable to me that something like this can be planned and executed within a week of the target date with so many variables unknown 26 weeks+ earlier | 12:33 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.6 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!