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quaid <meeting> 12:01
* ke4qqq is here 12:02
quaid ok, regadless of who can be here in real time 12:03
quaid let's address what is lingering and get a schedule reset 12:03
quaid DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting 12:03
quaid ok, I'll be editing the task table as we go 12:04
quaid first thing is meeting time ... 12:04
quaid so what happened for those not paying attention, time rolled back after daylight savings in some parts of the world 12:04
quaid and now 1900 UTC is an earlier time on local clocks, but we all keep trying to be here at the same time on our local clocks 12:05
-!- greg_72 [] has joined #fedora-docs 12:05
quaid we've always followed UTC and ate the problems in consideratio of being a global project 12:05
quaid so ... I reckon we just need to rediscipline ourselves to the 'new' time, and need to send out reminders a day in advance 12:06
* quaid holds the mic open for a moment while he does wiki stuff in the bg 12:07
quaid sorry, network dropped for a moment 12:11
greg_72 as I understand this is a meeting for the docs project right now. In spite of this, may I have a question? 12:11
quaid greg_72: since we are a bit unorthodox with our meeting today by holding it in this channel, that seems fair -- go ahead 12:11
greg_72 any experts on writing a docbook xml for a man page? my question is: in the file section, which docbook tag should I use for a file name and its description? 12:13
quaid greg_72: I don't know off-hand, but you can see if anyone lurking sees the question. 12:13
quaid all: what I'd like to do is schedule *next* meeting to cover: 12:14
quaid * Lessons learned from F10 12:14
quaid * Plans for F11 12:14
quaid hopefully we'll have more people for input 12:14
quaid as for today, I'm going to use the time productively to create our next few months plans 12:14
quaid around CMS, git migration, and such 12:15
quaid greg_72: if the man page stylesheets are using standard DocBook, it would probably be <filename>, not sure about description; have you been digging through the long list of tags on 12:17
* quaid Docs_Project_admin_tasks_for_experienced_contributors&action=edit 12:17
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greg_72 quaid: I'm at do not see "filename". I am a newbie in docbook, take a look around 12:20
quaid greg_72: 12:22
quaid scroll down to the ". DocBook Element Reference" 12:22
quaid each of those elements then has a page that shows what it can be a child of, what a parent of, and usage examples 12:22
ke4qqq so did the publican v. toolchain choice get made? 12:22
greg_72 quaid: thanks 12:23
ke4qqq obviously (I think) we still did toolchain for F10, right? 12:23
quaid ke4qqq: strategically, yes, i think so 12:23
quaid but tactically, we had to pull back again for F10 12:23
quaid otoh, we now have more expertise, experience, and a better quality of Publican in F10 12:23
ke4qqq is there a publican session at fudcon yet? 12:23
quaid but migrating to publican across the board and testing *all* needs is a good task. 12:23
quaid ooh, don't think so 12:23
quaid ke4qqq: can I put you on the spot for a moment? 12:24
quaid as a newer to Docs contributor 12:25
ke4qqq please 12:25
quaid ok, so one of the big reasons for going with Publican is that it is an upstream project, wider user base over time, so we can contribute to it but not have to own the entire toolchain. 12:25
ke4qqq k 12:25
quaid however, we give up control and NIH stuff we know and such. 12:25
quaid i.e., swap time tweaking out toolchain in favor of time tweaking on a cantankerous upstream. :) 12:26
quaid so ... 12:26
quaid in what you have witnessed the last few months 12:26
quaid i.e., struggles with fedora-doc-utils and struggles with publican 12:26
quaid on channel and on mailing list 12:26
quaid which direction would you recommend? gut instinct, thought, etc. 12:27
ke4qqq gut instinct says publican 12:27
ke4qqq because docs are published - still a number of unanswered questions in my mind about it 12:27
* stickster returns from phone 12:27
ke4qqq but doc-utils seems to require instruction in black magic 12:27
ke4qqq and incantations that are really long at times 12:27
ke4qqq so it appears as more of a blackbox.... 12:28
ke4qqq to me at least - granted the source is there, but I didn't have time to 12:28
ke4qqq go look under the hood over the past few months 12:28
ke4qqq and I suspect that parts of the toolchain that I didn't touch are even worse 12:28
* stickster agrees with ke4qqq that publican is the right way to go, even if it does a number of silly hacky things. 12:29
stickster Those will likely be worked out over time 12:29
stickster especially if we put ours aside and devote any modicum of that time to helping with publican 12:29
stickster And there's nothing saying we couldn't have a second toolchain project 12:30
ke4qqq biab 12:30
stickster But it would be truly secondary, imho. 12:30
* ke4qqq is back 12:32
quaid yay 12:32
quaid I think we all concur then 12:32
quaid stickster: yes, fedora-doc-utils can have a basic toolchain using whatever is on the system, but it is still useful for other reasons 12:33
stickster certainly 12:33
* quaid adds 'Publican migration' to tasks 12:33
stickster we just won't concentrate on it for people who want to work on docs in FDP 12:33
quaid ok 12:35
quaid that's one of our "before FUDCon tasks" I think 12:35
quaid then there is the s??? 12:36
* quaid back 12:36
quaid bittorrent ongoing seems to make ssh drop randomly 12:36
* quaid bets it's the Vonage QoS up LAN from him 12:37
quaid stickster: help me list out what we said we'd work on postF10 12:37
quaid (other than a lessons learned and F11 planning, for next week) 12:37
quaid * CMS 12:37
ke4qqq stickster: will there be a person at fudcon to teach us publican? 12:37
quaid * quaid tells FDP about plans for growing the project 12:38
quaid ke4qqq: jsmith, stickster, or I can probably do it 12:38
quaid jsmith seems to have the most recent experience 12:38
stickster I'm twisting jsmith-away's arm to be there :-) 12:38
stickster quaid: * make damn sure important docs have a team behind them, or announce their droppage to the whole project 12:39
stickster or (c) move them to wiki for prosperity 12:39
stickster (blecch) 12:39
quaid ok, what is a reasonable timeline for that? 12:40
stickster by Dec. 15th, I'd say 12:40
stickster No April surprises that way. 12:40
* quaid pondering on that 12:41
quaid maybe a soft drop for 15 Dec, and hard drop after FUDCon, a/k/a "Last Chanceville" 12:41
quaid ? 12:41
ke4qqq define 'important docs'? 12:42
quaid um ... all of them? 12:42
ke4qqq lol ok 12:42
quaid well, we don't really have an extraneous ones 12:43
ke4qqq is there a listing of docs we maintain, a canonical list? 12:43
quaid ah, probably not exactly 12:43
stickster The front page of the DocsProject had one I believe. 12:44
* quaid looking there now 12:44
quaid DocsProject#The_Documents 12:44
stickster ke4qqq: Really, it's the sum of what you see at under "docs" cvsroot, and the release notes and IG. 12:44
quaid but that's not entirely clear that way 12:44
stickster and the selinux-guide assuming we're helping murray with that 12:44
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quaid stickster: here's a question ... does any document with the Fedora logo on it belong in FDP? 12:45
-!- daMaestro [n=jon@fedora/damaestro] has joined #fedora-docs 12:45
stickster Yes. 12:45
stickster If it has the Fedora logo the FDP -- assuming one exists -- should be accountable for its accuracy and timeliness. 12:46
quaid I concur. 12:46
stickster If the FDP ceases to exist, then so should that guideline, and it means that whoever wants to publish under the Fedora logo is going to need to have some sort of charter to doso. 12:46
stickster s/doso/do so/ 12:46
quaid so that makes the Fedora SELinux User Guide within our purview 12:46
quaid there is also all the 'Linux Deployment Guide' content now out there we can draw from 12:47
stickster I think we should be incented to work on it because (1) it's current, (2) it's been gifted by someone who cared enough to put the time into it, and (3) that person (mdious) actually does hang out here and collaborate with us 12:47
quaid +1 12:48
* quaid reminds himself that guide needs some splash this release 12:48
quaid time for me to dust off the ol' blog and stuff 12:48
-!- dbewley1 [] has joined #fedora-docs 12:49
quaid hey dbewley1 12:49
quaid ok, I've got that deadline and stuff in the tasks now 12:50
quaid is that all the "now that F10 is done" stuff? 12:50
quaid ok 12:51
dbewley1 greets 12:52
* stickster is torn in several directions right now, sorry 12:52
quaid s'ok 12:52
quaid one thing that is great btw ... 12:52
quaid this release we had 3x the participation 12:53
quaid cf. the last few releases 12:53
quaid so our task is keeping and increasing momentum 12:53
quaid v. 'drag it up from the mud with bootstraps' :) 12:53
* stickster brb, has to close down and ssh in from elsewhere 12:53
quaid actually, it might be more than 3x, but it's pretty significant in comparison 12:53
-!- stickster is now known as stickster_afk 12:53
quaid and man ... the bugs are rolling in for the IG and relnotes, that seems like more than usual 12:54
quaid which is not intended as a negative reflection :) 12:55
quaid I don't think we have more bugs than usual, just more interest in helping us fix them 12:55
ke4qqq and thats a good thing 12:56
dbewley1 should we not make any changes to F10 wiki relnotes at this point? Like including things from Common Bugs page? 12:56
quaid dbewley1: wiki beats are done, all changes should be to the XML 12:57
quaid dbewley1: good question in that we do want to discuss the plan for the next update of f-r-n package + web update 12:58
quaid dbewley1: as for common bugs, if there needs to be changes in the relnotes, someone who cares about the bug needs to file a bug report 12:58
dbewley1 quaid: that answers that. :) so edits should go on common bugs and features pages etc for now 12:58
quaid one of the reasons for the wiki page is that it is easier to update than the relnotes; hopefully those bugs get fixed instead :) 12:58
quaid dbewley1: yes 12:58
dbewley1 quaid: no prob. just added something to common bugs earlier when someone wanted it on the relnotes 12:58
quaid we can spin a new web update relatively easily, and there are some open bugs 13:00
quaid be a good learning experience for anyone to do the fixes in the XML, then I can republish 13:00
ke4qqq ohhh so would pushing the web updates 13:01
dbewley1 that's a hill i don't have time to climb myself anytime soon :) learn git and docbook etc 13:01
* ke4qqq would like to watch in screen 13:01
quaid hmm, yeah 13:02
ke4qqq though how much of that matters if we move to publican? 13:03
quaid or using 'script' and publishing it out 13:03
quaid well, good question 13:03
quaid actually, it all still applies 13:03
quaid it's the CMS that replaces the web publishing 13:04
ke4qqq hmmmm ok 13:05
quaid and ... man, it's some deep black magic again, not sure I want to waste anyone else's braincells :) 13:05
ke4qqq perhaps it's time better spent learning the CMS 13:06
quaid yeah 13:07
-!- mhideo [n=mhideo@nat/redhat/x-81ad4e02dde4f83c] has joined #fedora-docs 13:08
quaid ok, tasks updated for moving forward 13:12
quaid Docs_Project_admin_tasks_for_experienced_contributors 13:12
* quaid actually wrote 'moving forward' darnit 13:12
-!- kennepede [] has joined #fedora-docs 13:15
quaid ok, that's enough for the day :) 13:16
quaid anything else or shall I close the meeting loop? 13:17
* quaid does a countdown in his head 13:17
quaid done! 13:18
quaid </meeting> 13:18

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