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| Sparks | #startmeeting Release Notes Meeting | 15:02 |
|---|---|---|
| Sparks | Who is here? | 15:02 |
| * Sparks | 15:02 | |
| * zoglesby is here | 15:02 | |
| * rudi is here | 15:02 | |
| * bcotton is here | 15:02 | |
| * jjmcd is taking a break from spending the state's money | 15:02 | |
| * laubersm found you | 15:03 | |
| Sparks | Okay... I'd like to discuss the following: | 15:04 |
| * laubersm goes to refill coffe mug before settling in for this hour of fun | 15:05 | |
| Sparks | 1. How to improve on the F12 RNs | 15:05 |
| Sparks | 2. What products need to be generated. | 15:05 |
| Sparks | 3. Using Publican for the RNs | 15:05 |
| Sparks | 4. Training people to write beats. | 15:06 |
| Sparks | laubersm: Hour? We've got this channel all day. | 15:06 |
| Sparks | Anything else we need to discuss? | 15:07 |
| * zoglesby get coffe IV | 15:07 | |
| * laubersm found only dregs and was too lazy to make more - but returned to this fun anyways | 15:07 | |
| jjmcd | Probably we should discudd who the audience is before attempting to answer those questions | 15:08 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: yes | 15:08 |
| jjmcd | sheesh the typing | 15:08 |
| Sparks | anything else? | 15:08 |
| rudi | Packaging | 15:09 |
| rudi | As in, when and what | 15:09 |
| jjmcd | Influenced by 2 of course | 15:09 |
| rudi | Yeah | 15:09 |
| Sparks | Okay, let's get started... | 15:10 |
| Sparks | #topic Audience | 15:10 |
| jjmcd | I see 3 | 15:10 |
| jjmcd | People who just installed and want to know what's new | 15:10 |
| jjmcd | People preparing to install | 15:11 |
| jjmcd | People looking for a new feature or fixed bug | 15:11 |
| Sparks | Wouldn't the second one be the IG? | 15:11 |
| jjmcd | Not necessarily | 15:11 |
| jjmcd | For example, database changes almost always require you to do something before install | 15:11 |
| Sparks | errr... shouldn't it be included in the IG | 15:11 |
| jjmcd | those won't be in the IG | 15:11 |
| Sparks | True | 15:12 |
| Sparks | So more of an upgrade guide | 15:12 |
| zoglesby | I think there is one more | 15:12 |
| jjmcd | Yeah, almost anything that needs a backup or something before upgrade needs to be captured | 15:12 |
| zoglesby | People that hear about Fedora and are trying to see what it has to offer | 15:12 |
| zoglesby | I often look at release notes when I hear about a new distro | 15:13 |
| jjmcd | Yeah, probably looking for more detail than the announcement | 15:13 |
| Sparks | Okay, so I see this as: | 15:13 |
| Sparks | The BIG RNs goes to the third group. | 15:14 |
| Sparks | A "Welcome to Fedora ##" for the last | 15:14 |
| Sparks | The "pretty" RN (from Marketing) for the first | 15:14 |
| jjmcd | I think welcome can also address the first group in an introductory way | 15:14 |
| Sparks | yes | 15:14 |
| jjmcd | good point. Perhaps marketing should do the welcome to fedora xx | 15:15 |
| Sparks | definitely | 15:15 |
| Sparks | So we are already working on the "pretty" version with Marketing. | 15:17 |
| Sparks | And we currently have the BIG RNs | 15:17 |
| laubersm | I generally find most "users" - new or upgrading - think of wiki and IG and UG as resources more than the RN - they tend to think Release Notes are for the geeks | 15:17 |
| Sparks | So we need to figure out the Upgrade guide | 15:17 |
| laubersm | The RN can include links to those general resources - and should | 15:17 |
| laubersm | UG = users guide | 15:18 |
| Sparks | agreed | 15:18 |
| laubersm | do we really need a separate upgrade guide? can't it be in the IG? | 15:18 |
| jjmcd | So the beat writers will need to be upgrade writers too, or at least help guide the upgrade writers | 15:18 |
| jjmcd | laubersm, I doubt if the experienced user will look at the install guide | 15:18 |
| Sparks | Well, I think the IG should have information on upgrading | 15:18 |
| rudi | FWIW, the IG already details several different upgrade paths | 15:19 |
| laubersm | jjmcd, I was thinking more of the reminders of good general practices - RN would still be for the "this time it is bar than needs to be reconfigured instead of foo" | 15:19 |
| jjmcd | But does it include things like "save your qle database to sql before upgrading and reimport after the upgrade"? | 15:19 |
| jjmcd | Yes, I don't see the upgrade guide as including all the version specific details | 15:20 |
| rudi | jjmcd -- no; and I think that's probably out of scope | 15:20 |
| laubersm | jjmcd, if that is an everytime you upgrade the db than it should be in a general guide and not repeated with every RN | 15:20 |
| Sparks | So beat writers talk about new stuff and also issues to upgrading | 15:21 |
| jjmcd | Yes, but most of the time you don't need to, seems like every third or fourth time with MYSQL, Postgres, and some others there are special things to do | 15:21 |
| jjmcd | But I agree, if its every time, then the upgrade guide | 15:21 |
| jjmcd | I see beat writers as listing all changes, but providing prose for "important" changes and upgrade issues | 15:22 |
| jjmcd | That way the change that you care about, but I don't see as important, is at least noted | 15:23 |
| laubersm | remind me - who makes up the beat writers? some are docs team members but aren't some from other teams that just help with RN? | 15:23 |
| jjmcd | Mostly docs team members but not always | 15:24 |
| jjmcd | We generally seem to do better with team members | 15:24 |
| laubersm | I ask because maybe docs members - or people more familiar with the many guides - should be reviewing to make sure RN stays trim and important stuff gets rediurected to the guides | 15:24 |
| laubersm | it seems to me that we just haven't had time for that in the past - | 15:24 |
| laubersm | even though the intent has been good | 15:25 |
| * laubersm prefers reviewing to writing by the way | 15:25 | |
| jjmcd | I'm hoping to have more lists and less prose this time around | 15:25 |
| jjmcd | Should give us more opportunity to review | 15:25 |
| jjmcd | And less work for translators | 15:26 |
| laubersm | and will the review period be as free form as last time or will it be a bullet on the docs team schedule (or in a wiki chart)? | 15:26 |
| jjmcd | I hope to take poelcat's schedule and add in some docs and l10n bullets | 15:27 |
| laubersm | cool. | 15:27 |
| jjmcd | We never got the l10n notifications in there and we need that | 15:27 |
| Sparks | Yeah, I think we need to make sure we get these beats done well ahead of time | 15:27 |
| laubersm | I think if beat writers trade reviewing it will help the overall flow of all the RNs as well - and catch more duplication (or need for general docs tips) | 15:28 |
| Sparks | Okay... I don't want to drag this meeting out... :) | 15:28 |
| Sparks | laubersm: I agree. | 15:29 |
| Sparks | So can we say that three "RNs" will make this work? | 15:29 |
| jjmcd | Most of that has to do with communications with other teams. Looking at the F11 beats, the only writer who wasn't a docs member at all was Chitlesh, although Jens I think is in the group, but not at the meetings etc | 15:29 |
| jjmcd | what three? | 15:29 |
| Sparks | 1) Big RNs | 15:29 |
| zoglesby | I think we had so much duplicate stuff last time cause on the last day 3 of of were writing all the stuf that didnt get done | 15:29 |
| laubersm | How are we naming these so they catch the correct audience? | 15:29 |
| Sparks | 2) "Pretty RN" | 15:30 |
| Sparks | 3) Upgrade "Guide" | 15:30 |
| jjmcd | You don't see the "pretty RN" as chapter one of big rn? | 15:30 |
| Sparks | The "Pretty RN" will be very graphical | 15:30 |
| jjmcd | ahhh good | 15:30 |
| Sparks | kind of like a "newsletter" | 15:30 |
| Sparks | a flyer | 15:30 |
| jjmcd | sounds like a bitch to translate | 15:31 |
| jjmcd | but we did it with IG if I recall | 15:31 |
| rudi | Not as long as people are careful to keep text out of the graphics | 15:31 |
| rudi | And rely on captions, or callouts | 15:31 |
| rudi | And yeah, the IG has about 70 images in each of about 35 localisations | 15:32 |
| Sparks | So are we good with those three? | 15:32 |
| jjmcd | question fro rudi | 15:32 |
| jjmcd | did you do those with dot or something so that you could translate easily? | 15:33 |
| rudi | Yeah, where needed. | 15:33 |
| jjmcd | cool | 15:33 |
| jjmcd | I like it Sparks | 15:33 |
| Sparks | #idea Three "RN" guides: big RN, "pretty" RN, and Upgrade Guide | 15:34 |
| rudi | jjmcd -- http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/en-US/html/s1-guimode-textinterface-x86.html | 15:34 |
| Sparks | Okay to move on? | 15:35 |
| rudi | Do we have any specific plan to keep down the bigness of the big RN? | 15:35 |
| jjmcd | tables | 15:35 |
| rudi | Hmmm -- tables might get L10N hating us for whole new reasons :) | 15:36 |
| zoglesby | I think that one of the big issues for 11 was the amount of info trans had to deal with if we add 2 more we need to cut some down | 15:36 |
| jjmcd | Nothing in the tables to translate | 15:36 |
| rudi | Oh OK. | 15:36 |
| rudi | Just that elements in lists and tables are very challenging | 15:37 |
| jjmcd | Jus package name, old version, new version link | 15:37 |
| jjmcd | Specifically intended to not need translation | 15:37 |
| zoglesby | lol | 15:37 |
| rudi | Without any description of what actually changed? | 15:37 |
| zoglesby | I think we can automate that to, | 15:37 |
| jjmcd | zoglesby, a lot of the prose was just fluff. Already automated ;-) | 15:38 |
| jjmcd | rudi, only "important" changes | 15:38 |
| rudi | OK | 15:38 |
| jjmcd | User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Fedora_12_tables | 15:38 |
| jjmcd | Not organized by beats, and needs a lot of editing | 15:39 |
| rudi | sure, but yeah, I get the picture now | 15:39 |
| zoglesby | why do we have meetings again? Why not force jjmcd to 6S everything for us | 15:39 |
| Sparks | +1 | 15:40 |
| jjmcd | We still need ppl who can reed and spel gud | 15:40 |
| laubersm | zodbot, because last time he built and rpm and left town and it had to be redone before he returned | 15:40 |
| laubersm | arg... that was for zoglesby | 15:40 |
| zoglesby | this is more of a fedora change log then release notes | 15:40 |
| * laubersm relies on tab complete too much without looking | 15:41 | |
| jjmcd | Well, we do need the change log. In my view, we still need prose for "important" changes, but this way someone looking for a feature or bugfix can see if it is there | 15:41 |
| zoglesby | laubersm: ah yes that was a good day | 15:41 |
| jjmcd | ANd that list is long because it is against rawhide. As we close in on release it will get shorter | 15:42 |
| rudi | zoglesby; true to some extent, but then, there was a lot of stuff in previous RNs that was basically "Package X has been upgraded from version 1.7 to 1.9" | 15:42 |
| zoglesby | jjmcd: very true, it takes care of one group | 15:42 |
| jjmcd | Yes, and the prose takes care of the others | 15:42 |
| zoglesby | ok | 15:42 |
| jjmcd | rudi, and that prose only provided useless work for translators | 15:42 |
| rudi | Yep. | 15:43 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Are you reviewig bug reports for stuff to go into the RN? | 15:43 |
| jjmcd | Yes, hit a bunch last week | 15:43 |
| laubersm | How about a para on how to use a tool to find that list and not include it at all :) | 15:43 |
| jjmcd | One "content" bug I still needs more research | 15:43 |
| * laubersm thinks such lists reinvent the wheel and will always miss something | 15:44 | |
| jjmcd | And the remaining RN bugs either need a lot of work or need to wait for something else | 15:44 |
| zoglesby | put a link to the fedora community site | 15:44 |
| jjmcd | laubersm, probably not a bad idea | 15:44 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Are people actually flagging items to be included in the RNs? | 15:45 |
| zoglesby | but there went your 0 trans :P | 15:45 |
| jjmcd | Sparks, generally no | 15:45 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Maybe we should encourage that and then query that. | 15:45 |
| jjmcd | I wonder how good an idea that is actually | 15:45 |
| jjmcd | For the person working on a package, any change is "important" | 15:45 |
| jjmcd | Although when you have someone like Chitlesh or Jens who sees the bigger picture, it is great when they can work on the prose | 15:46 |
| laubersm | jjmcd, will the list at least be at the end - ie "other updates include:" so I don't have to scroll through it to get to the prose? | 15:46 |
| jjmcd | yes, that was my view - but by beat | 15:47 |
| jjmcd | So you get the database prose, then the list | 15:47 |
| laubersm | ok | 15:47 |
| jjmcd | Problem is, the yum groups are all screwed up, so organizing the list by beat is going to be a bit of a job | 15:47 |
| jjmcd | That drafts page is by yum group | 15:48 |
| jjmcd | But as you said, perhaps we make a page that gets updated nightly for the list, or make the tool easy enough for people to use | 15:50 |
| jjmcd | That way you can see what changed from F11 to NOW rather than to the initial release of 12 | 15:51 |
| zoglesby | +1 | 15:51 |
| jjmcd | is there a php interface to sqlite? | 15:52 |
| * Sparks notes nine minutes left | 15:53 | |
| jjmcd | Still have most agenda items left | 15:53 |
| Sparks | Yes | 15:53 |
| jjmcd | yes sqlite or yes agenda? | 15:54 |
| Sparks | yes agenda | 15:54 |
| jjmcd | What is the issue with Publican? I thought we had that answered. | 15:55 |
| Sparks | Well... If you can do what you need to do then I'm fine. | 15:55 |
| Sparks | I can't get the SRPMs to generate in koji. They fail | 15:55 |
| * jjmcd has no issue with Publican | 15:55 | |
| rudi | The Beta for Publican 1.0 should be announced soon now | 15:55 |
| jjmcd | I've been manually building the SRPM, if Publican can do it right, great, but making the RPM isn't a biggie | 15:56 |
| rudi | I can't help with the SRPMs, but until 1.0 appears, we now have hackish fixes to most of the glitches in 0.44 up on the wiki | 15:57 |
| Sparks | Well, hopefully the "new" version of Publican will fix the problems. | 15:57 |
| jjmcd | If we still include N docs in the RN RPM it doesn't matter anyway | 15:57 |
| zoglesby | rudi: the fedora wiki or publican wiki? | 15:57 |
| rudi | Fedora wiki | 15:57 |
| laubersm | Even if there are glitches with the building the SRPM, I have no issues with publican - all items should be created with publican | 15:58 |
| rudi | Publican#Publican_on_Fedora_Tips_and_Tweaks | 15:58 |
| * laubersm did not like the old toolchain adventure | 15:58 | |
| * jjmcd agrees with laubersm | 15:58 | |
| jjmcd | I'm afraid we need at least another meeting to answer the "what products" question though | 15:59 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: That's cool. Is this time good with everyone? | 15:59 |
| * Sparks notes that it is awfully late/early for rudi | 15:59 | |
| * rudi isn't crazy about it, but will turn up with enough warning :) | 15:59 | |
| jjmcd | This time on Thursday is suboptimal but doable | 15:59 |
| rudi | 2AM here in the middle of an Australian winter | 16:00 |
| zoglesby | rudi: thats me every docs meeting! | 16:00 |
| zoglesby | well not the winter part | 16:00 |
| rudi | :D | 16:00 |
| * jjmcd will probably be out of town the next few Wednesdays, tho, so Thursday is better than Wednesday | 16:01 | |
| zoglesby | and I only wish I was in Australian | 16:01 |
| laubersm | I will have a harder time next week - afternoon would be better when students are more likely to be doing labs instead of listening to me talk.... | 16:01 |
| zoglesby | Sparks: any time is good with me, if I have to I will use my phone and not talk so much | 16:01 |
| * laubersm is EDT when refering to afternoon | 16:02 | |
| * Sparks is EDT, too | 16:02 | |
| jjmcd | If you move to 2000Z you are starting to get into a semi-sensible morning time for rudi | 16:02 |
| * Sparks notes 2000z is drive time for us in EDT | 16:03 | |
| rudi | Don't worry about me; I'm happy to work around you guys | 16:03 |
| Sparks | rudi: Time and a half at 1A? | 16:03 |
| rudi | I wish! :) | 16:04 |
| zoglesby | lol | 16:04 |
| Sparks | I miss shift-differential | 16:04 |
| jjmcd | Not me ... back when I got it, I was making $1.82 an hour | 16:04 |
| Sparks | Okay, anything else we need to discuss today? | 16:05 |
| zoglesby | I missing getting paid for the amount of time I work not working 80 hour weeks and getting the same as everyone else working 40 | 16:05 |
| rudi | Not discuss, but a thought to leave with people that we should perhaps try to get a package into rawhide rooner rather than later | 16:06 |
| Sparks | I agree | 16:06 |
| zoglesby | indeed | 16:06 |
| laubersm | +1 | 16:07 |
| rudi | ECS will be able to help out with some of the heavy lifting content-wise, but not so much with the packaging | 16:07 |
| rudi | (and hopefully there will be less heavy lifting this time round anyway) | 16:07 |
| Sparks | Okay, anything else? | 16:08 |
| Sparks | Okay, while we didn't get through everything we did have a good discussion. | 16:08 |
| Sparks | Good ideas | 16:08 |
| Sparks | Okay, thanks for coming! | 16:10 |
| Sparks | #endmeeting | 16:10 |