From Fedora Project Wiki
| Sparks | #startmeeting Release Notes Meeting | 15:03 |
|---|---|---|
| * Sparks | 15:03 | |
| * stickster (somewhat here) | 15:03 | |
| jjmcd | Well, we already started the discussion we have to have today | 15:03 |
| Sparks | Yeah... let's look at the old tasks and see what we still need to do and then continue that conversation | 15:04 |
| Sparks | anyone else? | 15:05 |
| jjmcd | where's the minutes? | 15:05 |
| stickster | link to the old stuff? | 15:05 |
| Sparks | http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-August/msg00072.html | 15:05 |
| Sparks | I've been posting all the meeting information at the same place as the Docs Meetings | 15:05 |
| Sparks | jjmcd to contact lynx developers about homepage | 15:06 |
| jjmcd | OK, last week I emailed the lynx maintainer | 15:06 |
| jjmcd | no response yet | 15:06 |
| jjmcd | still didn't write f-dev-l, wanted the lynx maintainer to have a few days | 15:06 |
| jjmcd | and email been borked past coupld | 15:06 |
| Sparks | #action jjmcd to follow up with lynx maintainer about homepage | 15:07 |
| Sparks | jjmcd to contact #f-devel-l about deprecating homepage | 15:07 |
| Sparks | #action jjmcd to contact #f-devel-l about deprecating homepage | 15:07 |
| Sparks | Sparks to investigate how RH handles various languages of Publican | 15:07 |
| Sparks | rudi: Can you answer that? | 15:07 |
| jjmcd | Sparks, I tested, handles them poorly | 15:08 |
| Sparks | How does RH manage different languages for installations of RHEL? | 15:08 |
| jjmcd | http://www.mi-nts.org/sl/DocMenu3.png | 15:08 |
| Sparks | Hmmm | 15:08 |
| jjmcd | well, publican, still want to hear what RH does | 15:09 |
| Sparks | Ya | 15:09 |
| rudi | Sorry -- I'm not sure | 15:09 |
| Sparks | I'll try to follow up with mhideo tonight. | 15:09 |
| stickster | rudi: Is RHEL 5 using Publican-based docs at this time? | 15:09 |
| rudi | Yes | 15:09 |
| Sparks | #action Sparks to follow up with mhideo about how RHEL handles multiple languages of Publican docs. | 15:09 |
| stickster | Sparks: So when we say "handle," you mean, what's installed by default, and what are considered the expected behaviors when someone installs multiple languages? | 15:10 |
| Sparks | yes | 15:10 |
| * stickster is thinking adopting a Fedora default of "install all languages" needs to go to f-devel-l | 15:11 | |
| Sparks | Anything else in old tasks? | 15:11 |
| Sparks | Okay... let's move to ideas of handling multiple languages in GNOME | 15:12 |
| jjmcd | Well, if it's only Gnome, it's easy | 15:12 |
| jjmcd | yelp does the job well | 15:12 |
| Sparks | #idea Install all languages and have Yelp figure out what language to display based on logged in language. | 15:13 |
| jjmcd | #idea Install all html and write a helper app | 15:13 |
| Sparks | Yelp ONLY knows if the file has all the languages in it. Can it handle it if the languages are in different files? | 15:13 |
| jjmcd | THey are in different files | 15:13 |
| Sparks | Yeah? So can they handle various xml files made in Publican? | 15:14 |
| * stickster confused what "the file" is | 15:14 | |
| stickster | Yelp expects things to land in /usr/share/gnome/help/$DOCNAME/$LANG/ | 15:14 |
| jjmcd | Sparks, yes, we take publican's output xml and give that to yelp | 15:14 |
| Sparks | "the file" == Publican output of a specific language of a book | 15:14 |
| jjmcd | Only prob is yelp doesn't display the changelog | 15:15 |
| Sparks | But the changelog is included INSIDE the book | 15:15 |
| jjmcd | Yes, but it shows up as empty in yelp | 15:15 |
| stickster | jjmcd: Did you know that shaunm can probably help you get that fixed? | 15:15 |
| Sparks | file a bug in yelp | 15:15 |
| * stickster thinks inviting him into this meeting might be good | 15:15 | |
| stickster | shaunm maintains gnome-doc-utils upstream. | 15:15 |
| jjmcd | stickster, no, I didn't. I suspect it is a yelp bug or a publican-specific tag | 15:15 |
| stickster | It's not a publican-specific tag, it's just DocBook | 15:16 |
| stickster | <revisionhistory> | 15:16 |
| jjmcd | Yeah, kinda strange how it doesn't show up | 15:16 |
| jjmcd | So good, now I know it's yelp and not Publican, so I can file a bug | 15:16 |
| Sparks | #action jjmcd to file a bug against Yelp to fix revision history from a Publican file | 15:17 |
| Sparks | So this is no longer a problem? | 15:18 |
| jjmcd | Sparks, FYI: /usr/share/gnome/help/fedora-release-notes | 15:19 |
| * Sparks really doesn't like this stuff being under "help" | 15:19 | |
| jjmcd | Publican does not create the omf file. If we stay with yelp, perhaps we should request that feature | 15:20 |
| * stickster notes that fedora-doc-utils used to have a way of putting things in a Documentation menu, but still using Yelp for the display. | 15:20 | |
| stickster | I don't think Yelp requires scrollkeeper anymore, but I could be wrong | 15:20 |
| jjmcd | Yes, I think in 10 we had about-fedora in two places | 15:20 |
| jjmcd | stickster, If I recall, I took some liberties in 11 and was surprised they worked | 15:22 |
| jjmcd | So perhaps yelp is smarter than I was giving it credit for | 15:22 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Okay... experiment with Yelp and see what you can do... | 15:23 |
| stickster | There are two ways to make Yelp bring up a doc | 15:23 |
| Sparks | let's move on to KDE to see if we can get some ideas out about that. | 15:23 |
| stickster | yelp file://$PATH/$DOC.xml | 15:23 |
| stickster | or | 15:23 |
| stickster | yelp ghelp://$DOCNAME | 15:23 |
| jjmcd | We know we can make yelp work, but that doesn't help the KDE guys | 15:23 |
| stickster | the second form for things that are entered into whatever's the new form of scrollkeeper | 15:23 |
| jjmcd | Ahhh, cool | 15:23 |
| jjmcd | and $DOCNAME is a subdir of gnome/help? | 15:24 |
| stickster | jjmcd: correct | 15:24 |
| jjmcd | I know there are those who would prefer html because it is desktop-agnostic | 15:25 |
| Sparks | And on the topic of HTML... | 15:25 |
| jjmcd | maybe rudi can enlighten us | 15:25 |
| Sparks | KDE can't use XML, AFAIK | 15:25 |
| rudi | Sorry guys -- one sec | 15:25 |
| Sparks | So do we have to use HTML for KDE? | 15:26 |
| * stickster notes rudi is in #fedora-meeting right now too | 15:26 | |
| rudi | Yeah -- power management stuff :) | 15:26 |
| Sparks | We see where we rank. | 15:26 |
| rudi | lolz | 15:27 |
| stickster | http://quality.kde.org/develop/howto/howtodocs.php <-- indicates KDE uses XML | 15:27 |
| rudi | Let me check to see what the help on my machine here looks like | 15:27 |
| Sparks | So we CAN use xml for both GNOME and KDE? | 15:27 |
| stickster | http://kde.org/getinvolved/documentation/ | 15:28 |
| Sparks | Looks like they are pushing DocBook | 15:29 |
| stickster | http://l10n.kde.org/docs/doc-primer/ | 15:29 |
| stickster | They may require a conversion to HTML for their display tool | 15:29 |
| * stickster refreshing memory, it's been a while. | 15:29 | |
| Sparks | http://l10n.kde.org/docs//markup/index.html | 15:29 |
| stickster | A lot of these will make things hard for Publican. | 15:30 |
| Sparks | Okay... so what do we NEED to know? | 15:30 |
| stickster | Among tags they don't use: articleinfo, edition, sgmltag, productname, productnumber, remark, revhistory (!) | 15:30 |
| stickster | Sparks: That HTML is probably going to be the way to go. | 15:31 |
| stickster | You would probably need to install two .desktop files for a document | 15:31 |
| stickster | One would include "OnlyShowIn=GNOME" and the other "OnlyShowIn=KDE" | 15:32 |
| Sparks | two .desktop files? We'd need to packages for each language... | 15:32 |
| Sparks | one with HTML and one with XML... | 15:32 |
| Sparks | as I THINK it only packages it with XML, now. | 15:32 |
| stickster | Why? | 15:32 |
| jjmcd | both with html | 15:32 |
| Sparks | Okay... so can Yelp handle HTML? | 15:32 |
| jjmcd | No, we package both in the same rpm currently | 15:32 |
| Sparks | With Publican? | 15:32 |
| stickster | yelp file://$PATH/somefile.html <-- works fine | 15:32 |
| stickster | try it: | 15:32 |
| jjmcd | Ahhhhh | 15:33 |
| stickster | yelp file:///usr/share/doc/HTML/fedora-release-notes/en-US/fedora-release-notes-en-US.html | 15:33 |
| stickster | Except that dang .SVG file | 15:33 |
| Sparks | Okay, so we aren't going to push any more XML... only HTML? | 15:33 |
| jjmcd | We gotta get rid of the svg file | 15:33 |
| * jjmcd can see he is going to have to get a lot more friendly with sed | 15:34 | |
| Sparks | So are saying that we will not push any document as XML, only HTTP? | 15:34 |
| jjmcd | I don't know we said that | 15:34 |
| Sparks | Okay, I ask, then... Why do we need to use XML? | 15:35 |
| stickster | Sparks: XML is for the document creation. | 15:35 |
| jjmcd | Altho, if we can set up yelp to automagically select the correct html that may be a plus | 15:35 |
| Sparks | I'm talking about the end product not the production | 15:35 |
| stickster | Sparks: For the end product, I'm not seeing a big reason to ship XML in a package for end users. | 15:35 |
| jjmcd | Yeah, I'm thinking that too. That would cut the payload almost in half | 15:36 |
| Sparks | Okay... now does Publican 1.0 package HTML? | 15:36 |
| jjmcd | But I'm from Missouri, I need to do more testing | 15:36 |
| Sparks | rudi: Can Publican 1.0 package HTML? | 15:37 |
| jjmcd | Don't know what Publican 1.0 does, but 0.44 does it lamely | 15:37 |
| Sparks | Well, there is going to be no further development of 0.44 so we need to look towards 1.0 | 15:38 |
| rudi | Again, I have to say don't know -- I haven't really checked out the packaging features | 15:38 |
| jjmcd | Sparks, I'm not sure it matters, at this point I'm not expecting Publican to make the package. The only question in my mind is can we make it look right for the end user | 15:38 |
| Sparks | We have to use Publican | 15:39 |
| Sparks | This is a decision that affects ALL our guides | 15:39 |
| jjmcd | There are so many things it does wrong now it would be a miracle for it to get them all fixed in the next release | 15:39 |
| Sparks | 1.0 has fixed many things. | 15:39 |
| jjmcd | OK, I can see that. But the other guides are only going to be packaged as single languages, right? | 15:39 |
| Sparks | yes... how are you going to do the RN? | 15:40 |
| jjmcd | And if you have a single html, publican already does that | 15:40 |
| jjmcd | Like we do today | 15:40 |
| jjmcd | Like Paul said, we probably need a long discussion with releng if we want to take 41 langs off LiveCD | 15:40 |
| Sparks | Well, there are definite negatives to a single package | 15:41 |
| Sparks | We wouldn't take the languages off the LiveCD... just separate them | 15:41 |
| jjmcd | Yes, but the negatives of multilple packages are much more significant for RNs than for the others | 15:41 |
| Sparks | like? | 15:41 |
| rudi | That said, how many of those 41 languages are translated to any appreciable degree? | 15:42 |
| jjmcd | RNs are in the default distro and, more significantly, in the live CD. | 15:42 |
| jjmcd | rudi - I would say better than half | 15:42 |
| jjmcd | Only a few are 100% but most are probably >50 | 15:42 |
| rudi | Only 10 are >50%...https://translate.fedoraproject.org/projects/docs-release-notes/f11-tx/ | 15:43 |
| jjmcd | So 1/4, makes it an easier sell I suppose, but is that really what we want? | 15:44 |
| Sparks | so every time you update a single translation you are forcing everyone to pull that new RPM even if their language didn't change | 15:44 |
| jjmcd | We only do that once per release if at all | 15:44 |
| jjmcd | historically | 15:44 |
| Sparks | why? | 15:44 |
| Sparks | We should be pushing updates many times... whenever they are ready | 15:45 |
| jjmcd | Just the way it's been. By the time there are significant new translations, we are mired in the next release | 15:45 |
| Sparks | otherwise, lock the translations after the release | 15:45 |
| jjmcd | Sparks, once we have the new tfx, we should be able to gen new rpms easily, but right now it is still a day's job or better | 15:46 |
| * stickster thinks it would be a good idea for Sparks and jjmcd (and other interested Doc'ers) to stay tuned into the yum-langpack issue | 15:46 | |
| Sparks | stickster: not familiar with that issue. | 15:46 |
| stickster | Features/YumLangpackPlugin | 15:47 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: Yeah, I know it is a pain but if the translators are doing the work we should reward that | 15:48 |
| jjmcd | Sparks, I agree | 15:48 |
| rudi | +1 | 15:48 |
| Sparks | Apparently Transifex 0.7 is being readied now. | 15:48 |
| * stickster lost on what question we're trying to answer at this point. | 15:48 | |
| jjmcd | Sparks wants one rpm per language. Actually makes sense for the guides, I'm not convinced on RNs | 15:50 |
| Sparks | What's the difference between the Guides and the RN? | 15:50 |
| jjmcd | The RN's get installed by default | 15:50 |
| Sparks | so? | 15:50 |
| jjmcd | And people expect to find them | 15:50 |
| Sparks | So if the Security Guide gets installed by default then that changes things? | 15:51 |
| jjmcd | What lang are you going to install? | 15:51 |
| Sparks | all of them | 15:51 |
| jjmcd | And what lang will be on the LiveCD. Remember, LiveCD is most folks first exposure to Fedora, and not all of those folks are in the US | 15:51 |
| stickster | jjmcd: I'm not sure the release notes SHOULD be installed by default | 15:52 |
| Sparks | you said, last week, that the space difference between pushing all langs as a single package or by separating them into separate packages was neglegiable | 15:52 |
| jjmcd | I can buy that, but I'm not willing to make that decision unilaterally | 15:52 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: All of them | 15:52 |
| stickster | You've installed. And now you want to see what's different. Maybe we should provide a way to *get* relnotes. | 15:52 |
| rudi | 25 languages are <10%, and of them, 11 are <5% | 15:52 |
| jjmcd | That would certainly help out the LiveCD space issues | 15:53 |
| rudi | I think there's a "least astonishment" issue here | 15:53 |
| jjmcd | rudi, I suspect the most commonly used languages are the most translated, but I don't have data | 15:54 |
| rudi | If people click on something purporting to offer them the release notes in Finnish, and the only extent that it's "in Finnish" are a couple of headings and the rest of the text is in English, I think that's a fail | 15:54 |
| Sparks | well of course they are the most commonly used languages... they are the only ones that are provided! :) | 15:54 |
| stickster | rudi: I think that offering a download, and indicating the translation level and a link to help improve it... might be a win | 15:55 |
| * stickster has to split for another meeting | 15:55 | |
| jjmcd | Could be that I'm somewhat Euro-centric, but I suspect there are more Dutch users than Assamese, for example | 15:55 |
| jjmcd | stickster, That does sound like a good idea | 15:55 |
| jjmcd | I'm also assuming that if we have a large user community, we likely have a large translator community, too | 15:56 |
| Sparks | Okay... five minutes left... | 15:57 |
| Sparks | Did we agree to only ship HTML and no XML? | 15:57 |
| jjmcd | Sparks, I could see fancying up docs.fp.o to include trans stats, and f-r-n.rpm simply has a menu entry | 15:57 |
| Sparks | jjmcd: I'm good with that | 15:58 |
| rudi | jjmcd -- great idea | 15:58 |
| jjmcd | rudi, is there a clean way to capture trans stats when we make the html? | 15:58 |
| jjmcd | We want the online stats to reflect the production doc so we can't just link to tfx | 15:59 |
| rudi | In Publican 0.x yes -- really nice actually | 15:59 |
| jjmcd | I would hate to do that by hand, but we could | 15:59 |
| rudi | But I think the feature was dropped in 1.0 coz no-one was using it :) | 15:59 |
| jjmcd | cool, OK then, lets assume that;s our jumping off point | 15:59 |
| jjmcd | :-( | 15:59 |
| rudi | But Transifex gives us statistics right there | 16:00 |
| jjmcd | Yes, but can I write a script to capture tfx stats into index.php at the time I make index.php | 16:00 |
| jjmcd | Oh wait | 16:01 |
| rudi | I don't know -- ask glezos :) | 16:01 |
| jjmcd | One of the utils tells me that, so of course I can script it | 16:01 |
| jjmcd | Just gotta figure out how | 16:01 |
| jjmcd | You just reminded me that there is a util somewhere that looks at the po and tells me the % xlated which is exactly what we want | 16:02 |
| rudi | Yeah, one of the gettext utilities | 16:02 |
| jjmcd | yep | 16:02 |
| rudi | *thinking* | 16:02 |
| rudi | msgfmt? | 16:02 |
| jjmcd | I'll find it | 16:03 |
| rudi | msgfmt --statistics, I think | 16:03 |
| jjmcd | Ahhh yes, man says so | 16:04 |
| rudi | Yep -- just confirmed it | 16:05 |
| jjmcd | So I could take that output and use it to add % trans to index.php | 16:05 |
| jjmcd | OH I gotta go too | 16:06 |
| Sparks | Did we agree to only ship HTML and no XML? | 16:06 |
| jjmcd | Looks like we have a plan | 16:06 |
| rudi | Yep -- 2AM and bedtime here | 16:06 |
| jjmcd | No, we are only going to ship a menu item | 16:06 |
| Sparks | a menu item? | 16:06 |
| Sparks | to point to docs.fp.o? | 16:07 |
| jjmcd | We'll save LiveCD 20 megs, people will get latest version, and trans stats | 16:07 |
| jjmcd | Yep | 16:07 |
| Sparks | What about those that don't have web access? | 16:07 |
| jjmcd | Not much in Fedora works without web access these days, anyway. That was bbasically stickster's suggestion so lets talk about that with him, but use this as our current target | 16:08 |
| Sparks | Okay.... I'm good with that approach for the LiveCD... I'm thinking about our SIPRNET users and airplane users | 16:08 |
| jjmcd | I'm thinking the 22Mb will be worth more than the problem with offline | 16:08 |
| Sparks | ya | 16:09 |
| Sparks | Okay... anything else? | 16:09 |
| Sparks | #endmeeting | 16:09 |
