From Fedora Project Wiki
| -!- herlo changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Mentors Meeting | 16:00 | |
| Douglas_ | Alejandro Acosta, ambassador, Chihuahua, México | 16:00 |
|---|---|---|
| kital | JoergSimon | 16:01 |
| rsc | Robert Scheck | 16:01 |
| bochecha | Mathieu Bridon | 16:01 |
| herlo | Clint Savage | 16:01 |
| herlo | well, 6 so far, that's much better than last time :) | 16:02 |
| kital | ;) | 16:02 |
| * herlo gives another couple minutes for anyone else to join, then we'll start. | 16:02 | |
| herlo | Okay, so let's begin | 16:05 |
| herlo | I've emailed out the agenda, so if anyone wishes to follow along, that's where I am going to work from. I hope to have us a meetings page next time as well as a place to put tasks and anything else we find necessary | 16:05 |
| kital | +1 | 16:06 |
| herlo | Item 1: discuss the previous plan for mentors and | 16:06 |
| herlo | integrate as much positive from it into a new process. | 16:06 |
| herlo | I'm specifically referring to this page | 16:07 |
| herlo | Mentors | 16:07 |
| herlo | please take a moment to read the process there, then let's discuss | 16:07 |
| kital | ! | 16:07 |
| herlo | kital: go ahead | 16:08 |
| kital | as you can see on that page the mentor is choosed by the new contributor | 16:08 |
| herlo | yes | 16:08 |
| kital | in the Ambassadors most of you know i assign a mentor to a new mentor after sponsoring | 16:09 |
| kital | but | 16:09 |
| kital | i think we need to start mentoring before choosing the right group | 16:09 |
| herlo | agreed | 16:09 |
| kital | eof | 16:09 |
| herlo | Part of the problem I see with the process there is that we need to start with the new contributor as soon as they join the project, not when they come to us for help. | 16:10 |
| herlo | which is pretty much what kital just said. | 16:10 |
| herlo | any other thoughts there? | 16:12 |
| kital | i think before all other we have to give them a helping hand | 16:12 |
| kital | as i said in my presentation on FAD | 16:12 |
| kital | who can help you | 16:12 |
| herlo | +1 | 16:12 |
| Douglas_ | +1 | 16:12 |
| bochecha | ! | 16:12 |
| herlo | bochecha: please go ahead | 16:13 |
| bochecha | couldn't we have a page on FAS, that is displayed when you open your account, and that links to the wiki page, talks about mentoring, etc. ? | 16:13 |
| bochecha | eof | 16:13 |
| herlo | bochecha: yes, and we should +1 | 16:13 |
| kital | could be a start | 16:13 |
| herlo | bochecha: have you heard of the MyFedora Project? | 16:13 |
| bochecha | in fact, the problem I see with the mentoring right now is that... who knows about it ? | 16:14 |
| bochecha | I certainly did not when I joined Fedora | 16:14 |
| bochecha | herlo, yes, looks great | 16:14 |
| bochecha | mentoring could be integrated in it too | 16:14 |
| herlo | one of the goals of mine is to give real-time statistics within Fedora, one thign the mentors could obtain is when a new contributor joins... | 16:14 |
| herlo | we could have it on our myfedora page | 16:15 |
| bochecha | when a new contributor joins, he could say in MyFedora « I want to do _this task_ « and MyFedora directs him to available mentors. Mentors could be notified in MyFedora, etc. | 16:15 |
| herlo | which could make it easy for us to follow up. Because otherwise, how do we know when someone joins the Fedora Project unless they join a specific group. | 16:15 |
| bochecha | just like the « be friends » in Facebook, only it would be useful :) | 16:15 |
| herlo | bochecha: sure, and we'll get some of that. But I think we 'as Mentors' should be proactive because most contributors aren't comfortable in this new environment and don't understand the community well enough to really participate. | 16:16 |
| herlo | bochecha: and adding that functionality you mention into MyFedora will be critical | 16:17 |
| rsc | well, directly pointing to the mentors is IMHO not the right thing. People should first pointed to the groups, projects, teams and then to mentors. | 16:17 |
| herlo | rsc: please explain why | 16:17 |
| EvilBob | mentoring has always happened in the groups, Mentoring happens to some degree all the time without this formal structure. | 16:18 |
| rsc | herlo: why should I explain the same and the same story to each person again and again? | 16:18 |
| rsc | herlo: Mentors are not the information point as in a shopping mall. | 16:18 |
| che | EvilBob, yup | 16:18 |
| che | for general information id advise to use a wiki or another central point to document things. | 16:19 |
| kital | che EvilBob this is true for groups like docs, artwork, packaging, infra | 16:19 |
| Douglas_ | ! | 16:20 |
| herlo | Douglas_: go ahead sir | 16:20 |
| EvilBob | kital: So if it is not happening in other groups does it not make sense that those groups are broken? | 16:20 |
| kital | no | 16:21 |
| bochecha | in fact, I find it kind of weird that mentors are outside of groups / SIGs / projects... there's (almost ?) a group / SIG / projct for each and every task you could want to do in Fedora. And who can give you better information on what to do in this group than a member of the group himself ? | 16:21 |
| Douglas_ | I've been in the project since May last year and I still have a hard time finding something in the wiki, I wish I have a mentor or a better search engine | 16:21 |
| kital | i can speak only for Ambassadors | 16:21 |
| che | bochecha, people showing other people how thing are done are maybe already involved in alot other groups ;) | 16:21 |
| che | bochecha, or projects | 16:22 |
| EvilBob | Douglas_: have you spoke up publicly about not being able to find something? | 16:22 |
| herlo | bochecha: I agree with your point about how mentors should be part of a SIG, in fact, that's going to be my target | 16:22 |
| bochecha | che, yes, but then each SIG should designate its mentor(s), it should not be a side project IMHO | 16:23 |
| Douglas_ | EvilBob: not until now | 16:23 |
| che | bochecha, it is not always a formal project to share knowledge | 16:23 |
| herlo | bochecha: but with that, I disagree, is it not possible to be part of two groups/SIGs? | 16:23 |
| bochecha | herlo, did I say the contrary ? | 16:23 |
| EvilBob | Douglas_: Hmm, I see the issue, I think you do now also | 16:23 |
| EvilBob | Douglas_: feel free to grab me after the meeting and I will show you a tour | 16:24 |
| herlo | bochecha: in your last comment, you stated it should not be a side project, maybe I misunderstood... | 16:24 |
| EvilBob | kital: you can only speak for ambassadors... is ambassadors still that busted they can't bring in and nurture new members? | 16:24 |
| herlo | oh, hehe, misread | 16:24 |
| herlo | sorry bochecha | 16:24 |
| herlo | Okay, so it sounds like there's some disagreement on how the process should flow, no? | 16:25 |
| Douglas_ | EvilBob: Thanks, but I'm not completely lost at this point, I'm just saying that if you're new this could be a bit confusing and you could use some help from a mentor | 16:25 |
| EvilBob | herlo: IMO if a SIG or Project wants or needs mentors they have them | 16:26 |
| herlo | I'd like to bring us all to this point. Mentoring is (and should be) a critical point in helping get contributors more integrated into their chosen group... | 16:26 |
| Douglas_ | +1 | 16:26 |
| bochecha | but then, IMHO, what we need is first have each SIG / group designate its mentors, and the coordinate the efforts of those mentors | 16:27 |
| kital | EvilBob: we try it http://jsimon.fedorapeople.org/fad08.pdf - but it is not so easy because quality measures are more spreaded then in other groups | 16:27 |
| bochecha | otherwise, we're speaking about mentoring between « mentors », but people who are actually mentoring new members are not here | 16:28 |
| EvilBob | bochecha: And what if a sig or group is not broken and does not need mentors? | 16:28 |
| bochecha | EvilBob, what do you need broken ? | 16:28 |
| herlo | the problem I see here, is we all have different ideas of what mentoring means so I'd like to set some purposes together today and try them out. | 16:29 |
| kital | then they did not need it | 16:29 |
| bochecha | if it doesn't need mentors, it might be because no one is joining it | 16:29 |
| che | herlo, yup. that was a good point. | 16:29 |
| herlo | EvilBob: don't imply the group is broken because it needs mentoring | 16:29 |
| che | herlo, for me mentoring means primarily knowledge transfer | 16:29 |
| kital | +1 | 16:29 |
| EvilBob | bochecha: Or because the existing group works as a team to inspire and help the new members | 16:29 |
| herlo | or that folks in the group don't know how to bring along new contributors... | 16:29 |
| armelk | +1 | 16:29 |
| rsc | che: +1 | 16:29 |
| herlo | che: +1 | 16:29 |
| Douglas_ | che: +1 | 16:30 |
| bochecha | EvilBob, then the whole group is acting as mentors, still, the group needs some ;) | 16:31 |
| herlo | So in my opinion, we should be focusing on how mentoring can help each group get new members better integrated. The question is, whether it should come from within or without the group. I also think that it's possible to start with one mentor and be handed to another with a good set of rules, training and practice | 16:31 |
| bochecha | s/some/them | 16:31 |
| bochecha | herlo, how can you do it without the group ? | 16:31 |
| herlo | bochecha: in the sense that a contributor doesn't know which group they'd like to join | 16:31 |
| herlo | we'll need someone there to help them find where they'd like to be | 16:32 |
| kital | that is imho also a job of a Ambassador? | 16:32 |
| herlo | I can think of specific instances running into new contributors on my own | 16:32 |
| herlo | kital: could be, that's what I am driving us toward. | 16:32 |
| herlo | who are those mentors. | 16:33 |
| herlo | how do we get them involved. | 16:33 |
| herlo | do they need to be a part of another group? | 16:33 |
| herlo | or are ambassadors fully equipped to handle the load? | 16:33 |
| EvilBob | IMO for mentoring to be the most effective it should start from the top down, get the project heads first, they know best how to handle their projects | 16:33 |
| rsc | Mentors should help, where existing ressources are not helping. Of course they should know how other groups work. | 16:33 |
| bochecha | EvilBob, +1 | 16:33 |
| herlo | +1 EvilBob | 16:33 |
| herlo | +1 rsc | 16:33 |
| EvilBob | herlo: are you saying that someone has to be an ambassador to be a mentor? | 16:34 |
| herlo | no | 16:34 |
| EvilBob | I sure as hell hope not | 16:34 |
| herlo | I'm asking whether it should be handled there? | 16:34 |
| EvilBob | NO | 16:34 |
| bochecha | ro me, ambassador is just another SIG | 16:35 |
| bochecha | so there should be mentors for ambassadors, just as there should be mentors for bug triaging for example | 16:35 |
| * kital thinks a Ambassador should know the Fedora Project better then anyone else | 16:35 | |
| bochecha | (I'm not saying there aren't right now) | 16:35 |
| che | kital, i somehow agree but i am desillusioned about that. | 16:36 |
| herlo | +1 kital | 16:36 |
| EvilBob | kital: But yo already said you have a narrow view | 16:36 |
| kital | narrow view about Mentoring | 16:36 |
| herlo | EvilBob: kital himself does, but I would argue that every ambassador has another interest in the fedora project somewhere besides ambassadors | 16:36 |
| che | kital, the gap between should and is seems to be rather large. | 16:36 |
| rsc | kital: +1 | 16:36 |
| EvilBob | If this gets tied to Ambassadors It will be a very bad idea | 16:37 |
| herlo | which to me is the point, the range of ambassadors skillsets makes them perfect to head up the mentoring project. I'm not saying that you have to be an ambassador to participate, but they give us a large part of the project to work with... | 16:37 |
| herlo | EvilBob: you say things like that without giving good arguments to the contrary. | 16:38 |
| kital | most agree with me - so this means Ambassadors needs better teaching | 16:38 |
| EvilBob | herlo: WHy should one group be in control of everything that they can get their dirty little fingers in to? | 16:38 |
| rsc | A mentor doesn't have to know everything, but he/she should be at least able to point e.g. to an ambassador or to a bugzapper or whatelse if suitable and needed. | 16:38 |
| che | rsc, +1 ;) | 16:39 |
| herlo | EvilBob: they're not in control. Mentors don't have to be ambassadors, just ambassadors make good mentors | 16:39 |
| EvilBob | herlo: they control the $$ | 16:39 |
| herlo | rsc: +1 | 16:39 |
| herlo | EvilBob: they do not! | 16:39 |
| EvilBob | Heh | 16:39 |
| armelk | rsc: +1 | 16:39 |
| che | it is definitely always better to point to another source of information if unsure. | 16:39 |
| herlo | EvilBob: but that's not a discussion for here | 16:39 |
| che | guessing is rather unprofessional | 16:39 |
| rsc | che: but happens often enough, unluckily. | 16:39 |
| che | rsc, yup. i am also on the ambassador list. | 16:39 |
| herlo | che: how do you mean, another source of information ?? | 16:40 |
| EvilBob | If you want to have a mentoring project then have a mentoring project, if you want to recruit members from all the sb projects including ambassadors then that is the way you should go | 16:40 |
| che | herlo, someone else who is more proficient with that kind of knowledge. like asking on the ambassador list rather than guessing. | 16:40 |
| EvilBob | Do not just make it an extension of ambassadors. | 16:41 |
| herlo | EvilBob: and that *is* the plan. Many Ambassadors are also involved in other projects, so we're asking them to be part of the mentors project in their *other* specialty because they know it well. | 16:41 |
| herlo | che: ahh, indeed | 16:41 |
| herlo | I suspect we'll have a lot of crossover to make this program work | 16:42 |
| EvilBob | herlo: You are mucking about with getting ambassador hooks in to this that are not needed | 16:42 |
| EvilBob | herlo: go to the SIGS, the Projects, ask THEM who would like to be the targeted mentor | 16:43 |
| bochecha | EvilBob, +1 | 16:43 |
| * kital thinks EvilBob needs mentoring in the Community | 16:43 | |
| EvilBob | herlo: bypassing those that will get the most benefit by going to the Ambassadors first is bad juju | 16:44 |
| herlo | EvilBob: I think we get your point. | 16:44 |
| kital | Conduct | 16:44 |
| herlo | Thank you for your opinion. And while I don't plan to run to the ambassadors and ask them all to buddy up to the mentors group, I think they have a lot of value. | 16:44 |
| herlo | as well, I think discussing with leaders of each group is a good idea, so that will happen as well. | 16:45 |
| * herlo adds some tasks in his mind. First, we need to contact the SIGS and discuss the rebirth of the Mentoring project with them | 16:46 | |
| herlo | Talk about our focus and goals. | 16:46 |
| herlo | Define those with each group. | 16:46 |
| herlo | Find out what resources Mentors can provide to them to help contributors to join. | 16:47 |
| herlo | Improving upon their join processes where we can... | 16:47 |
| herlo | I also think we should involve Ambassadors as (at least in NA) they've done much of the legwork to help provide the Mentoring Program with much of this information. | 16:48 |
| * herlo guesses EMEA and other Ambassador programs have been workign to gather similar information. | 16:48 | |
| EvilBob | herlo: Contacting the SIGS/Projects to see if they have someone in the sig that would like to be a formal part of or interface to the Mentors SIG? | 16:48 |
| * herlo mulls | 16:49 | |
| herlo | EvilBob: yes, for sure | 16:49 |
| EvilBob | herlo: IMO that would be step to after contacting the SIG/P Leads | 16:50 |
| herlo | however, that means they would have to dedicate precious resources away from their project to recruit new contributors. Not saying it's a bad thing, just want to attack it from multiple directions | 16:50 |
| EvilBob | s/to/two | 16:50 |
| herlo | which is why I think Ambassadors are a logical step in the process. | 16:51 |
| herlo | They already know many of the groups and can help where a leader might be too busy | 16:51 |
| EvilBob | herlo: so you suggest that assigning someone from outside the SIG that knows nothing about the SIG is a better idea? | 16:51 |
| herlo | no | 16:51 |
| herlo | EvilBob: that's not what I said at all | 16:51 |
| herlo | Docs is a great example | 16:51 |
| herlo | David Nalley is a Fedora Ambassadors, but participates heavily in the Docs project too | 16:52 |
| herlo | he's a perfect candidate for the Mentoring since he knows how to deal with people and he knows the processes inside docs.. | 16:52 |
| EvilBob | at this point I think it would be better if you just assigned an ambassador to state my needs and opinions | 16:52 |
| EvilBob | Thanks | 16:52 |
| * EvilBob shakes his head and walks away | 16:52 | |
| herlo | EvilBob: you can continue to attack if you like, but I don't see how it's helping | 16:53 |
| bochecha | herlo, but what makes him a perfect mentor is more the fact that he is in the SIG than the fact that he is an ambassador | 16:53 |
| Douglas_ | and still we need some figure(s) to attend new contributors and forward them David -in this example- | 16:53 |
| bochecha | I don't even see why you mention he is an ambassador | 16:53 |
| EvilBob | herlo: Forget that the ambassadors exist, how would you do this WITH OUT them? | 16:53 |
| kital | that is not true | 16:53 |
| kital | bochecha i have recruited a lot new contributors for SIG i am not involved | 16:54 |
| bochecha | kital, but in this case, all you can do is pass them to someone in the SIG right ? | 16:54 |
| EvilBob | kital: But you are the exception to every rule | 16:54 |
| herlo | bochecha: having both ambassador and docs qualities makes him perfect, being only in docs may mean he's not interested in helping others get integrated, just wants to provide good documentation | 16:54 |
| bochecha | to me, you are not a mentor in those cases (which doesn't mean you didn't play an important role ;) | 16:55 |
| kital | right - because i know who this is! | 16:55 |
| bochecha | herlo, how can you be in a SIG and not want it to welcome more people ? o_O | 16:55 |
| herlo | my argument is that a mentor is not someone who 'passes off' the contributor | 16:55 |
| bochecha | herlo, and I totally agree with that | 16:55 |
| herlo | a mentor follows up, a mentor keeps in contact, is a friend, knows the problems of the contributor, helps them grow, etc. | 16:56 |
| bochecha | (and I think EvilBob does too) | 16:56 |
| EvilBob | bochecha: Some in SIGs are to busy | 16:56 |
| * herlo doesn't argue that EvilBob's heart is in the right place | 16:56 | |
| herlo | it just feels like he's attacking Ambassadors unnecessarily because he doesn't agree with their purposes | 16:56 |
| herlo | but I digress and want to focus on mentoring | 16:57 |
| herlo | but I can see there's a lot of passion here too | 16:57 |
| herlo | and I love that | 16:57 |
| herlo | I want to harness it into a direction | 16:57 |
| EvilBob | bochecha: I just don't want some pin head showing up "HI <SIG>, I'm a Fedora Ambassador and I'm your mentor" | 16:57 |
| herlo | I want mentors to succeed because I can see that all of you care | 16:57 |
| bochecha | EvilBob, yeah, that would be ridiculous ^^ | 16:58 |
| herlo | EvilBob: that won't happen... | 16:58 |
| Douglas_ | That won't happen | 16:58 |
| EvilBob | herlo:then why bring ambassadors in to it at this point? | 16:58 |
| kital | +1 EvilBob | 16:58 |
| bochecha | same question as EvilBob | 16:58 |
| EvilBob | herlo: Hey I want to be involved in this, I want to help make things work | 16:59 |
| kital | EvilBob: because Ambassadors should know potential Mentors | 16:59 |
| herlo | EvilBob: again, ambassadors are more than one focus. Many many many ambassadors are participants in other groups. They're people people. They can be those friends. | 16:59 |
| EvilBob | herlo: I am already being pushed out the door by ambassadors | 16:59 |
| herlo | they can help people along... | 16:59 |
| bochecha | herlo, if they are in those groups yes, if not, they are just passing people to the appropriate mentor | 16:59 |
| herlo | EvilBob: we can discuss that another time, I want to move forward with helping new contributors. Ambassadors are a big part of it... | 17:00 |
| kital | just? bochecha | 17:00 |
| EvilBob | kital: If ambassadors project wants to interface with the mentors project to help drive contributors they can do that with out being a part of the mentoring group | 17:00 |
| EvilBob | herlo: discuss what? | 17:00 |
| herlo | bochecha: no, that's where their ambassadorship is important. If they are to be mentors, they must follow our procedures, and get people integrated. | 17:00 |
| EvilBob | herlo: I have NOTHING to hide | 17:00 |
| herlo | EvilBob: you being pushed out the door, it is not relevant to this discussion | 17:00 |
| kital | but Ambassadors need Mentoring as well - right? | 17:01 |
| herlo | sure, but that's not the point either kital | 17:01 |
| bochecha | kital, exactly | 17:01 |
| bochecha | herlo, it is | 17:01 |
| EvilBob | herlo: Me being pushed out of this meeting is not relevant? | 17:01 |
| herlo | EvilBob: that's not what you said | 17:01 |
| EvilBob | herlo: THAT IS what I said | 17:01 |
| herlo | EvilBob: and I'm not pushing you out. Just asking you not to attack | 17:01 |
| * bochecha didn't see where EvilBob was being pushed out of the meeting | 17:01 | |
| * kital thinks this is not very constructive | 17:02 | |
| herlo | the core problem I'm seeing is we don't agree on *how* ot mentor | 17:02 |
| bochecha | if ambassadors need mentoring, then they are not more suited to be mentors than any other SIG | 17:02 |
| herlo | bochecha: new ambassadors are new contributors, sure they need mentoring | 17:02 |
| bochecha | herlo, I didn't say the contrary | 17:02 |
| biertie | herlo +1 | 17:02 |
| bochecha | what I mean, is that they need mentoring just as any other new contributor | 17:02 |
| bochecha | so, they are not more suited than any other group to be mentors | 17:03 |
| herlo | bochecha: I know, what I want to argue is that experienced ambassadors are people persons. | 17:03 |
| herlo | bochecha: IMO yes, they are better suited | 17:03 |
| herlo | but it doesn't preclude any other group from having mentors | 17:03 |
| herlo | and it doesn't mean that mentors have to be ambassadors either | 17:04 |
| EvilBob | as I said | 17:04 |
| EvilBob | herlo: Forget that the ambassadors exist, how would you do this WITH OUT them? | 17:04 |
| herlo | it's just a good place to start since we can pull from them | 17:04 |
| herlo | EvilBob: but they do exist, so why should I do that? | 17:04 |
| bochecha | EvilBob, exactly, just as we would do without any other group | 17:04 |
| bochecha | herlo, because they need mentoring too, because they are just another SIG too | 17:04 |
| EvilBob | herlo: you are focusing on them | 17:04 |
| bochecha | (s/they/we as I am an ambassador) | 17:05 |
| herlo | EvilBob: because they can help the best IMO | 17:05 |
| EvilBob | herlo: you think they will save the Mentors concept | 17:05 |
| herlo | no, I think *we* will save the Mentors concept with their help. | 17:05 |
| kital | can we please focus how we can new contributors become involved faster with better quality in the right group to get things done? | 17:05 |
| EvilBob | if mentoring is going to rise or fall it should do so on it's own | 17:05 |
| herlo | but only if we can get past this bickering | 17:05 |
| herlo | kital: +1 | 17:05 |
| EvilBob | if you want it to be a sub project of the Ambassadors then that should have been stated from the start | 17:05 |
| bochecha | kital, isn't that what we are doing ? o_O | 17:06 |
| herlo | EvilBob: that's not the case, stop iT! | 17:06 |
| * herlo moves to kital's suggestion | 17:06 | |
| EvilBob | herlo: if it is not the case please stop bringing th ambassadors in to | 17:06 |
| EvilBob | it | 17:06 |
| herlo | what methods can we take to improve the contributor experience | 17:06 |
| herlo | Working with leadership in each SIG / Sub-project to identify | 17:07 |
| herlo | direct contacts for new contributors | 17:07 |
| herlo | that's point 1 on my agenda | 17:07 |
| bochecha | and then make it easy for the new contributor to encounter this direct contact | 17:07 |
| kital | so in packaging we have the sponsor who makes the reviews right - in Ambassadors we have regional Mentors but no real Quality measures | 17:07 |
| herlo | what other things can you guys think of that will help the contributor direction... | 17:07 |
| herlo | yeah, statistics are going to be important. One place where mentors need to keep tracking those contributors they're mentoring | 17:08 |
| kital | i think the first change should be to point someone to a real responsible person - so he can interact with | 17:08 |
| bochecha | EvilBob, and this page is mentioned when you open your FAS account | 17:08 |
| bochecha | as you become a contributor when you open a FAS account... | 17:08 |
| herlo | which means we need statistics from each SIG/group | 17:08 |
| herlo | kital: how should we go about that... | 17:09 |
| kital | we do that in Ambassadors | 17:09 |
| bochecha | EvilBob, you mean, help for filling a form ? | 17:09 |
| EvilBob | So we need frontline/general Mentors and Mentors in the SIG/P also | 17:10 |
| EvilBob | IMO anyhow | 17:11 |
| herlo | Who do you suggest those frontline Mentors be EvilBob | 17:11 |
| bochecha | herlo, anyone who is willing to be and has experience to drive new contributors to the appropriate person ? | 17:11 |
| EvilBob | Just as Douglas_ mentioned earlier would have been nice to have more help | 17:11 |
| herlo | bochecha: where do we get them from? | 17:12 |
| EvilBob | herlo: pull them from the general populous | 17:12 |
| herlo | EvilBob: how? | 17:12 |
| bochecha | herlo, we shouldn't _get_ them | 17:12 |
| EvilBob | herlo: put a call out on some of the lists | 17:12 |
| EvilBob | herlo: ask and they will come | 17:12 |
| bochecha | and those who want will do | 17:12 |
| EvilBob | herlo: ask EVERYONE not just a single group | 17:13 |
| bochecha | a mentor in a SIG/P can also be a frontline mentor if he wants to / has the time to | 17:13 |
| EvilBob | bochecha: Exactly | 17:13 |
| herlo | So I think there's a couple plans of attack there, one is to mass mail the list | 17:13 |
| bochecha | herlo, where I agree with EvilBob, is that you seem to imply that only ambassadors can be those frontline mentors | 17:13 |
| herlo | another is to contact each SIG and repurpose a leader into a mentor? | 17:13 |
| EvilBob | Who here is wiling to send out an email to a list or two they are on, seeking these frontline mentors? I know I am. | 17:14 |
| herlo | bochecha: I will continue to agree with my statement that Ambassadors be the frontlines, but clearly you don't agree | 17:14 |
| herlo | EvilBob: and what if the Ambassadors come en masse to help with your reply? | 17:15 |
| EvilBob | This would have to be coordinated so we don't double up | 17:15 |
| herlo | s/reply/request/ | 17:15 |
| EvilBob | herlo: then they come as community members | 17:15 |
| herlo | okay | 17:15 |
| EvilBob | There are contributors in other groups that have resources, spare time, what have you | 17:16 |
| herlo | no argument | 17:16 |
| EvilBob | Just as Ambassadors do that want to help | 17:16 |
| EvilBob | but perhaps as with me, Ambassadors is not a place I fit | 17:16 |
| herlo | I'm sure there are others. | 17:17 |
| herlo | if there weren't this community would never have succeeded as well as it has | 17:17 |
| herlo | Here's the next thing I want to discuss. | 17:17 |
| herlo | 3 - Each group has a slightly different join process, and we're here | 17:18 |
| herlo | to lower that barrier, not do the work for them. What can we do to | 17:18 |
| herlo | make it easier to become a contributor. | 17:18 |
| EvilBob | target the community as a whole and this can succeed | 17:18 |
| herlo | EvilBob: I've never said differently | 17:18 |
| herlo | so we agree on that :) | 17:18 |
| herlo | thoughts about lowring barriers? | 17:19 |
| herlo | hello? | 17:20 |
| bochecha | just to be sure, who is the « we » in your sentance ? is that « mentors » ? if that's the case, why are you implying they are outside of the groups ? | 17:20 |
| herlo | bochecha: it's from my agenda, much has changed since then | 17:21 |
| herlo | but I'd say this mentors group | 17:21 |
| herlo | as a whole | 17:21 |
| bochecha | well, I think each group has to lower its barrier of entry, I can't see how someone from outside can do it :-/ | 17:22 |
| bochecha | and as it seems we are discussing as a mentor group, I can't see how we can lower the barriers for other groups | 17:22 |
| herlo | well, I thought we said that each SIG would have to provide someone inside to help contributors to understand the processes. | 17:22 |
| kital | +1 | 17:23 |
| bochecha | and those persons would be the ones that will lower the barriers | 17:23 |
| inode0 | ! | 17:23 |
| herlo | what about those new contributors who aren't sure of their direction | 17:23 |
| herlo | inode0: go ahead | 17:24 |
| inode0 | some groups I've spoken with indicate they create high barriers intentionally, they don't have time or resources to mentor beginners | 17:24 |
| inode0 | they need to have proof you are a serious about contributing first | 17:24 |
| inode0 | which makes leaving this to those groups problematic | 17:25 |
| herlo | inode0: good point | 17:25 |
| Douglas_ | sounds reasonable | 17:25 |
| herlo | sometimes its a language barrier, or just lack of knowledge that prevents someone from participating in something they want to learn | 17:26 |
| bochecha | and how could someone outside those groups help a new contributor to join them ? | 17:26 |
| EvilBob | Who wants infrastructure handing the keys to the castle to some guy that walks in off the street? | 17:26 |
| kital | inode0 this people mostly start in Ambassadors Group because the barrier is very low and this is the reason why here mentoring is much needed | 17:26 |
| bochecha | EvilBob, exactly | 17:26 |
| herlo | EvilBob: helping them understand that might be what a mentor in infra does | 17:26 |
| EvilBob | bochecha: "I" do, would make life interesting | 17:26 |
| EvilBob | ;^) | 17:27 |
| inode0 | infra is a good example | 17:27 |
| inode0 | they do mentor new members, but make you ask for one more than once to get one :) | 17:27 |
| herlo | but it sounds to me like infra doesn't have the resources to provide a mentor, then what? | 17:27 |
| EvilBob | inode0: it is also why infra is viewed by some as a "Good'ol boy's club" | 17:27 |
| herlo | EvilBob: but I'd say that Ricky proved that it's not a 'Good ol' boys club' | 17:28 |
| inode0 | art I think is one group that lacks resources to really mentor new members who don't have sharp skills | 17:28 |
| * herlo agrees with inode0 | 17:28 | |
| bochecha | and how would a frontline mentors help in lowering the barrier to enter art team ? | 17:29 |
| kital | knowing about the processes | 17:30 |
| herlo | well, my thought is that frontline mentors would do as the ambassadors did. Invite the art leader (or someone experienced) to come and talk about how to get involved, what the process is and help identify ways to lower the barrier | 17:31 |
| herlo | maybe for an hour, or for several meetings. I think leadership can spare one or two hours a month, but more than that gets a bit difficult | 17:31 |
| bochecha | but then, I don't really see the added value of the frontline mentor in the case you describe | 17:32 |
| * kital has to go now sorry | 17:32 | |
| Douglas_ | Gotta go amigos, I'll catch up later in the meeting log | 17:32 |
| * herlo will call the meeting in about 10-15 minutes for those who are sticking around | 17:32 | |
| herlo | bochecha: the argument is that now the frontline mentor has *some* knowledge and can help get the new contributor started. It's possible they will need to hand them off to more capable hands, but that the art mentor may not have caught this person until they joined the art team | 17:33 |
| bochecha | ok, so you were speaking about some « one shot » meeting to actually « instruct the frontline mentor » | 17:34 |
| herlo | yes | 17:34 |
| bochecha | ok, I hadn't understood it this way | 17:35 |
| kirkz | herlo: just came on and noticed your meeting - want me as a rookie to attend - I can give you my experience so far | 17:35 |
| herlo | kirkz: that'd be great! | 17:36 |
| kirkz | OK | 17:36 |
| bochecha | gotta go too unfortunately :-/ | 17:36 |
| bochecha | bye | 17:37 |
| herlo | np, sounds like we're winding down anyway | 17:37 |
| herlo | let's plan for another meeting in 2 weeks. Is Sunday good for everyone? | 17:38 |
| biertie | will she be so "violent" again? :) | 17:38 |
| biertie | I'll try to be more active then ;) | 17:38 |
| herlo | hehe, k | 17:38 |
| * herlo notes that is March 1 | 17:39 | |
| herlo | I'll post the minutes that I have and a summary up later today to the mentors list | 17:39 |
| herlo | any other thoughts before we close? | 17:39 |
| biertie | no :) | 17:40 |
| herlo | 10 | 17:40 |
| herlo | 9 | 17:40 |
| herlo | 8 | 17:40 |
| herlo | 7 | 17:40 |
| herlo | 6 | 17:40 |
| herlo | 5 | 17:40 |
| herlo | 4 | 17:40 |
| herlo | 3 | 17:40 |
| herlo | 2 | 17:40 |
| herlo | 1 | 17:40 |
| herlo | EOF | 17:40 |
| herlo | bye all! Thank you | 17:40 |
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