From Fedora Project Wiki
Attendees
- adamw (155)
- cmurf (55)
- Viking-Ice (55)
- handsome_pirate (30)
- danofsatx (19)
- sgallagh (16)
- nirik (16)
- roshi (15)
- jreznik (9)
- zodbot (7)
- satellit (6)
- tflink (5)
- Martix (4)
- robatino (3)
- masta (1)
- anhhct (1)
- pwhalen (1)
- satellit_e (1)
Agenda
- Previous meeting follow-up
- Fedora 20 recap
- Fedora 21 planning
- Open floor
Previous meeting follow-up
- adamw to draft a new test case and matrix row for validating cloud image checksums - that was done
Fedora 20 recap
- Fedora 20 is signed off - thanks to all testers!
- We dissected the then-known major bugs in the release
- All major known bugs were documented at Common_F20_bugs
Fedora 21 planning
- Project-wide, planning is blocking on Fedora.next until the WGs report to FESCo in January; this makes QA planning for Fedora 21 mostly impossible until then
- FESCo has declared that Fedora 21 will not be released any earlier than late August 2014 (may be later)
Open floor
Action items
- adamw to push the sanity check proposal out, group seems to approve
- adamw to check F19 and F18 commonbugs for issues that should be copied to F20
IRC Log
| adamw | #startmeeting Fedora QA meeting | 16:17 |
|---|---|---|
| zodbot | Meeting started Mon Dec 16 16:17:15 2013 UTC. The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:17 |
| zodbot | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. | 16:17 |
| roshi | lol | 16:17 |
| adamw | #meetingname fedora-qa | 16:17 |
| zodbot | The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa' | 16:17 |
| jreznik | ooh! | 16:17 |
| roshi | there's that | 16:17 |
| adamw | #topic Roll call | 16:17 |
| adamw | oh lookit that, it works | 16:17 |
| adamw | it's the power of pure imagination! | 16:17 |
| * roshi is here | 16:17 | |
| roshi | it was afraid of being left out | 16:17 |
| adamw | who's here for QA magic time, folks? | 16:17 |
| * tflink is here | 16:17 | |
| * masta waves | 16:17 | |
| adamw | #chair roshi masta jreznik | 16:17 |
| zodbot | Current chairs: adamw jreznik masta roshi | 16:17 |
| * Viking-Ice is here | 16:17 | |
| roshi | once the humans start having their own meetings.... | 16:17 |
| * danofsatx is present and mostly accounted for | 16:17 | |
| * pwhalen is here | 16:17 | |
| * nirik is here. | 16:18 | |
| * jreznik is here | 16:18 | |
| nirik | ride the wave! | 16:18 |
| adamw | phew, there go all the smelly people | 16:18 |
| * handsome_pirate waves | 16:18 | |
| * cmurf is somewhere | 16:18 | |
| adamw | did we lose anyone? say something if we lost you | 16:18 |
| * sgallagh hangs about | 16:18 | |
| nirik | I'm lost. :) | 16:18 |
| Viking-Ice | quickly assign tasks assign tasks!!! | 16:18 |
| * handsome_pirate hops down from the Crows Nest | 16:19 | |
| adamw | _ #action Viking-Ice do everything | 16:19 |
| adamw | like that? | 16:19 |
| handsome_pirate | +1 | 16:19 |
| Viking-Ice | adamw, I'm still here so no... | 16:19 |
| adamw | OH HEY i didn't see you there | 16:19 |
| zodbot | adamw fires cmurf_ | 16:19 |
| * Martix is here | 16:19 | |
| cmurf | oh finally | 16:19 |
| adamw | haha, morning zodbot | 16:19 |
| adamw | cmurf: yeah, there's THAT shoe | 16:19 |
| adamw | #topic Previous meeting follow-up | 16:20 |
| adamw | #info "adamw to draft a new test case and matrix row for validating cloud image checksums" - this was done, https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2013-December/119513.html | 16:20 |
| adamw | yes, i'm so goddamn awesome that after three weeks i finally managed to write a lousy test case | 16:20 |
| zodbot | adamw fires nirik | 16:20 |
| adamw | one of these days i'll get around to adding satellit_'s sugar tests to the desktop validaiton page :/ | 16:21 |
| adamw | did anyone have a minute to look at the draft yet? robatino, you're the sanity testing guy? | 16:21 |
| robatino | looks okay to me | 16:21 |
| danofsatx | I looked at it... | 16:21 |
| handsome_pirate | adamw: It's been about two years since I've written a Fedora test case, I guess I'm due | 16:21 |
| robatino | note that when i test lives, it actually includes both lives and spins | 16:21 |
| cmurf | "cmurf left the chat room. (*.net *.split)" Ummm noo, i'm right here. | 16:22 |
| handsome_pirate | lol @ topic change | 16:22 |
| adamw | robatino: i basically split the 'targets' up more or less by directory, smooshing arches together | 16:22 |
| roshi | looks good to me | 16:22 |
| * cmurf looked | 16:22 | |
| adamw | if a different separation makes sense, do suggest it | 16:22 |
| adamw | also if i left out any deliverables | 16:23 |
| * handsome_pirate is satisfied | 16:23 | |
| adamw | i _really_ feel the lack of a single page that lists out everything we're supposed to ship as part of a release | 16:23 |
| nirik | such a page is likely to change a lot for f21. ;) | 16:23 |
| cmurf | we need a new topic, again | 16:23 |
| roshi | yeah | 16:23 |
| adamw | ha. don't even joke | 16:23 |
| nirik | but we should definitely have one for then | 16:23 |
| adamw | oh boy | 16:24 |
| adamw | do i re-start meeting? who knows? | 16:24 |
| adamw | #topic Testing | 16:24 |
| adamw | oh hey, there we go. | 16:24 |
| adamw | so, is it OK if I go ahead and push this change out now? seems like everyone's on board | 16:25 |
| adamw | and if i don't push stuff through i tend to forget about it :) | 16:25 |
| cmurf | apparently this is an automated monday morning lesson in patience | 16:25 |
| adamw | #topic Previous meeting follow-up | 16:25 |
| cmurf | yes | 16:25 |
| adamw | #action adamw to push the sanity check proposal out, group seems to approve | 16:26 |
| adamw | #topic Fedora 20 recap | 16:26 |
| adamw | #info huge vote of thanks to everyone who helped with F20 validation, great job folks | 16:27 |
| Viking-Ice | I have not had time to review that sanity proposal | 16:27 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: ah ok, i'll hold for now | 16:27 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: yell if you have feedback | 16:27 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: sorry, hard to keep track of who's responded and who hasn't with all the netsplitting :/ | 16:27 |
| danofsatx | I looked at it, but don't feel I'm qualified yet to offer a vote. | 16:28 |
| danofsatx | maybe for F21, I'll have more of a clue. | 16:28 |
| Viking-Ice | we dont usualy vote on this stuff more like ack/nack gradually improve | 16:28 |
| Viking-Ice | patch approach | 16:29 |
| danofsatx | ok, let me rephrase.... s/a vote/any feedback | 16:29 |
| adamw | danofsatx: roger, thanks | 16:30 |
| adamw | so F20 is going out tomorrow | 16:30 |
| cmurf | gottseidank | 16:30 |
| adamw | i worked on the commonbugs page over the weekend, i think it's in fairly good shape: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F20_bugs | 16:30 |
| * jreznik is looking | 16:31 | |
| adamw | please, if anyone's aware of additional bugs that should be listed there, do add them, or mark the bug with the CommonBugs keyword | 16:31 |
| adamw | (that will cause those of us who check and add issues to commonbugs every so often to see it) | 16:31 |
| jreznik | adamw: for that unfortunate bug in dracut, docs guys are aware and removing it | 16:31 |
| adamw | i've just been made aware of serious issues using F20 as a FreeIPA server, so i'll add a note for that soon | 16:31 |
| * satellit https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=888307 ? DVD as repo when inserted? | 16:31 | |
| adamw | satellit: i do wish we could get that fixed :/ it's probably not a bad thing to have on there indeed, can you throw CommonBugs keyword on it if it's not there already? | 16:32 |
| adamw | which reminds me... | 16:32 |
| satellit | k | 16:32 |
| Viking-Ice | is that not something the freeipa guys should have been adding themselves or? | 16:32 |
| adamw | #action adamw to check F19 and F18 commonbugs for issues that should be copied to F20 | 16:32 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: eh, it's not a settled thing - commonbugs isn't really owned by anyone and doesn't have any real policies associated with it, near as i can tell, it's just something everyone hopes happens | 16:33 |
| adamw | i tend to do a lot of the writing on it just because it's something i picked up doing, i don't mind adding new notes, it's always good to have people help though | 16:33 |
| satellit | done | 16:34 |
| adamw | satellit: thanks | 16:34 |
| Viking-Ice | adamw, the time it takes me to explain to you is the same time I could have spend writing it myself ;) | 16:34 |
| Viking-Ice | ( as opposed to have you do it for me ) | 16:34 |
| danofsatx | there was a 3-digit bug that came up in KDE channel the other day. it's 15 years old and not fixed yet...should we do something about that one? | 16:34 |
| * danofsatx is still looking for the bug in question | 16:34 | |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: eh, if they knew what was going on, sure - it just came in through the RH mail chain, like "omg our feature is broken for f20! STOP THE RELEASE!" | 16:34 |
| robatino | .bug 998 | 16:34 |
| zodbot | robatino: Bug 998 Network install/upgrade is unsafe, should check GPG signatures. - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=998 | 16:34 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: as opposed to, you know, testing it *before* we signed off on release :/ | 16:34 |
| Viking-Ice | and you responded it's already out the door sucks to be you ;) | 16:35 |
| adamw | yup | 16:35 |
| danofsatx | yeah, that one ...thanks robatino | 16:35 |
| adamw | danofsatx: that one is...a greatest hit | 16:35 |
| adamw | danofsatx: you're not a true fedoran till you've had your first chat about #998 :P | 16:35 |
| danofsatx | well, then, I guess I'm official now, huh? ;) | 16:36 |
| * nirik doesn't think that merits a common bugs... I mean, what would you say... "Still can't solve insolvable problems" :) | 16:36 | |
| adamw | long story shorter, it's deceptively tricky to 'fix', at least if you take a sufficiently persnickety view of how it 'ought' to work. it's not really actually possible to 'fix' it without something like Secure Boot being enabled, according to some. | 16:36 |
| adamw | #info if you have a bug that you think is sufficiently common/serious to merit a commonbugs note, do add it to the page yourself (following instructions in teh page source) or throw a CommonBugs keyword at it | 16:37 |
| cmurf | wow a 15 year old bug | 16:37 |
| adamw | so, we do have a few brown paper bag issues for release time, probably good if everyone knows about them | 16:38 |
| cmurf | "Aliases:fidelitas-ex-nihilo, oldest-bug-evar" | 16:38 |
| adamw | so if anyone asks you know what to tell 'em | 16:38 |
| adamw | cmurf: i'm a fan of 'fidelitas ex nihilo', dunno which scholar came up with that | 16:38 |
| adamw | most notably, any install done to LVM thinp with the release package set (so DVD, live) will fail to boot | 16:38 |
| adamw | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F20_bugs#lvm-thinp-fail for the instructions to avoid that | 16:39 |
| adamw | lots of people are probably going to be reporting incorrect yum errors about groups not existing, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F20_bugs#yum-group-errors for that | 16:39 |
| adamw | (but then they'll be reporting that for f19 too) | 16:39 |
| adamw | and yeah, from my inbox this morning it sounds like running a FreeIPA server on F20 is a really bad idea at present | 16:40 |
| * satellit wish DVD could be used for livecd-tools remix repo and https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1043208 provide ksflaten .ks in spin-kickstarts | 16:40 | |
| Martix | adamw: I use LVM thinp and I have to use older ..-300.. kernel to successfully boot | 16:41 |
| satellit | noted today the if install @sugar-desktop cannot find it when do yum update | 16:41 |
| adamw | #info Fedora 20 brown paper bag bugs: LVM thinp crash #1040669, yum group errors #1043207 #1014202 #1043221 #1043231, FreeIPA server LDAP attributes missing https://fedorahosted.org/389/ticket/47631 | 16:41 |
| adamw | Martix: see the commonbugs note - update dracut and rebuild initramfs, should fix it | 16:41 |
| cmurf | Martix: it's unlikely the kernel, but the initramfs for that older kernel that makes it work | 16:41 |
| cmurf | i tested lvmthinp with -301 and it works if dracut builds a correct initramfs | 16:42 |
| adamw | of course, if everyone can blog / tweet / G+ / insert-favoured-propaganda-tool-here about the release that'd be great | 16:42 |
| Martix | I tried running dracut yesteday, is this in today's updates? | 16:42 |
| Viking-Ice | is it the classic bug of anaconda not rebuilding initramfs after install? | 16:42 |
| cmurf | Martix: no | 16:42 |
| cmurf | Martix: you have to revert to an older dracut | 16:42 |
| adamw | Martix: it was pushed stable late yesterday i think, been in updates-testing till then | 16:42 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: no | 16:43 |
| cmurf | oops ok there we go | 16:43 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: it's the bug 'dracut team completely broke dracut in RC1' | 16:43 |
| Martix | adamw: ok, thanks | 16:43 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: I wrote a mail to the list about it | 16:43 |
| danofsatx | one of many..... | 16:43 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: anaconda does re-generate the initramfs after install, now; but that's no good if harald broke initramfs generation for thinp :( | 16:43 |
| Viking-Ice | I need to expand my bug horizon to cover dracut as well | 16:43 |
| adamw | danofsatx: heh | 16:43 |
| cmurf | lvmthinp is that poor godforsaken ornery feature that just got beat up left and right the entire release | 16:44 |
| adamw | hehe | 16:44 |
| Viking-Ice | btrfs for the win! | 16:44 |
| adamw | thinp inside btrfs! | 16:44 |
| adamw | on raid! | 16:44 |
| adamw | on stilts! on the high wire! | 16:44 |
| cmurf | i can vouch for btrfs working on thinp virtual LVs | 16:45 |
| Viking-Ice | why.... | 16:45 |
| cmurf | of up to 32TB on a 100GB disk | 16:45 |
| danofsatx | adamw: s/stilts/iscsi | 16:45 |
| cmurf | how else are you going to make a 32TB btrfs volume without buying a lot of drives? | 16:45 |
| Viking-Ice | danofsatx, nfsv4 | 16:45 |
| Viking-Ice | not iscsi | 16:45 |
| Viking-Ice | ;) | 16:45 |
| Viking-Ice | on top of glusterfs | 16:45 |
| adamw | and people thought my storage matrix was complete | 16:46 |
| adamw | this is the kind of stuff you actually wind up _thinking_ about if you sit down and try and draw one... | 16:46 |
| danofsatx | who said a crazy thing like that? | 16:46 |
| adamw | someone on the mailing list | 16:46 |
| adamw | or in my head. one of the two. i've been working hard lately. | 16:46 |
| handsome_pirate | adamw: I like btrfs | 16:47 |
| cmurf | yum cocktails, all weekend long | 16:47 |
| cmurf | i saw them | 16:47 |
| danofsatx | well, the only one that responded was cmurf.... | 16:47 |
| adamw | so, aside from battening down the hatches for the yum bugs, anyone think of anything else we need to do to prep for release? | 16:47 |
| adamw | any steps that aren't in an sop and that i've forgotten? | 16:47 |
| handsome_pirate | adamw: I have btrfs on raid of scsi and san | 16:47 |
| adamw | danofsatx: oh yeah, it was an off-topic subthread of the desktop package set rework mails | 16:47 |
| danofsatx | k...I don't feel like re-reading them right now. ;) | 16:48 |
| cmurf | "Re: Criterion revision proposal: KDE default applications" | 16:48 |
| cmurf | that's the thread? | 16:48 |
| adamw | danofsatx: i don't blame you | 16:48 |
| adamw | cmurf: yeah, but it's split aacross three lists | 16:48 |
| adamw | i didn't expect it to be _quite_ so controversial | 16:48 |
| cmurf | oh piddle on the floor | 16:48 |
| adamw | since the blocker rejection was voted through in like 15 seconds. but eh | 16:48 |
| cmurf | what other two lists? | 16:48 |
| adamw | desktop@ and kde@ | 16:49 |
| cmurf | and it's most controversial on which list? | 16:49 |
| adamw | i wouldn't worry about it, i obviously have more work to do on the more radical proposals | 16:49 |
| adamw | all of them? :P | 16:49 |
| Viking-Ice | the output from the WG lands on the WG | 16:49 |
| Viking-Ice | period | 16:49 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: i wasn't even thinking about the WG stuff] | 16:49 |
| cmurf | please tell me you didn't suggest Manual Partitioning just be turned off, because if that's controversial we're screwed | 16:50 |
| adamw | cmurf: no, nothing like that | 16:50 |
| cmurf | ok so there's maybe hope i filter through them later | 16:50 |
| Viking-Ice | so DE ( anything ) is going out of our criteria into WG's own product critera | 16:50 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: everyone else seems to be cheerfully assuming all this fedora.next stuff is actually going to happen for f21, which in my opinion is batshit crazy, but never mind | 16:50 |
| Viking-Ice | adamw, you know why that is right? | 16:51 |
| cmurf | batshit is great fertilizeer | 16:51 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: i'm kind of working under the assumption it's all going to fall apart and/or be punted so we'll have a perfectly normal F21 release to worry about, but no-one else is on that page with me apparently. yet. | 16:51 |
| jreznik | adamw: we will see in January... | 16:51 |
| jreznik | but I'm with adamw... | 16:51 |
| tflink | yeah, I figure there's not much to worry about yet | 16:51 |
| adamw | tflink: well the thing that bugs me is that we can't do any planning, because it's all up in the air | 16:51 |
| tflink | well, not much point in worrying too much until we have anything concrete to work with | 16:51 |
| adamw | i can't get a proposal like this through because everyone's like 'OH BUT FEDORA NEXT!' | 16:51 |
| Viking-Ice | adamw, they have this glorious fuckup of halting Fedora until it's ready. It takes time for the WG's to to climb the elephant and duck tape the wings on it | 16:51 |
| adamw | sigh | 16:51 |
| cmurf | duct tape | 16:52 |
| * satellit don't forget the feather | 16:52 | |
| Viking-Ice | the WG is an utter and total failure | 16:52 |
| cmurf | pronounced like duck tape | 16:52 |
| danofsatx | the brand name is Duck Tape. | 16:52 |
| cmurf | if only we had duck tape, to prevent ducks from exploding or something | 16:52 |
| adamw | the worst case scenario is fedora.next falls apart and fesco decides to go ahead and do a release four months later and we don't have time to go and fix these things properly so we get to go through f21 with the duct tape again | 16:52 |
| cmurf | haha really, a brand of duct tape called Duck Tape, brilliant | 16:52 |
| Viking-Ice | satellit I would not be surprised if that ends up being the output they just tar and feather it and throw it of a cliff | 16:52 |
| adamw | arbitrary live image size targets and suboptimal package sets and all the other stuff we could be fixing now | 16:52 |
| Viking-Ice | fly baby fly <sploink> | 16:53 |
| adamw | cmurf: the question of whether it's called duct tape or duck tape is only marginally less controversial than that wikipedia page about wrestling :P | 16:53 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: haha, someone needs to gif that' | 16:53 |
| cmurf | oh i'm not looking at that wikipedia page ever never | 16:53 |
| adamw | so, ok | 16:54 |
| adamw | now we got our bellyaching done | 16:54 |
| cmurf | F21 is an unknown until January | 16:54 |
| cmurf | right? | 16:54 |
| handsome_pirate | adamw: phear | 16:54 |
| tflink | cmurf: at a minimum, yeah | 16:54 |
| adamw | #info please post any thoughts you have on lessons learned from F20 QA cycle to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_20_QA_Retrospective | 16:54 |
| adamw | and quickly: | 16:54 |
| cmurf | So either we get something coherent in January, or there will be a punt in January, right? | 16:54 |
| adamw | #topic Fedora 21 planning | 16:54 |
| handsome_pirate | adamw: I was under the impression from fesco that earlist f21 would land is September | 16:55 |
| adamw | cmurf: and yes, that's correct | 16:55 |
| handsome_pirate | Oh | 16:55 |
| handsome_pirate | That was perfect timing | 16:55 |
| adamw | handsome_pirate: that's assuming they make the decision in january... | 16:55 |
| * handsome_pirate dances | 16:55 | |
| nirik | punt to what? | 16:55 |
| sgallagh | handsome_pirate: Yes, I was just digging up the FESCo ticket there. | 16:55 |
| jreznik | cmurf: yes and it's not going to happen earlier than the and of august | 16:55 |
| cmurf | F21 for horses vs F21 for unicorns | 16:55 |
| jreznik | s/and/end | 16:55 |
| adamw | #info Fedora 21 is up in the air on the basis of the fedora.next proposals until January | 16:55 |
| handsome_pirate | adamw: Come January, I'm going to point out to FESCo that we (QA) was promised 3 months, no matter hwat | 16:55 |
| handsome_pirate | s/hwat/what | 16:56 |
| adamw | #info we cannot do significant F21 planning until we know what the FESCo plan for the fedora.next stuff is, which will happen then | 16:56 |
| nirik | right. | 16:56 |
| sgallagh | https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1178 | 16:56 |
| adamw | #info F21 GA cannot come earlier than late August | 16:56 |
| jreznik | handsome_pirate: yep, that 3 months are in that outlined schedule | 16:56 |
| handsome_pirate | So, even if fedora.next dies, *we still get our three months* | 16:56 |
| cmurf | OK so whether F21 is standard magic or new magic, there's going to be a ~3 month retooling gap? | 16:56 |
| anhhct | guys i wanna know the fedora 20 counter on the project homepage is set based on which timezone? thanks! | 16:57 |
| adamw | so, yeah, i was hoping we'd be able to talk about various things we can do to try and plan a more organized workload for F21 cycle, but it's hard to cover a lot of that stuff when we don't know where fedora.next will go. | 16:57 |
| nirik | anhhct: try asking in #fedora-websites | 16:57 |
| handsome_pirate | anhhct: gmt, I believe | 16:57 |
| sgallagh | adamw: The intent was for the time between F20 and F21 planning to be made available for QA and Rel-eng to play catch-up on their automation efforts | 16:57 |
| adamw | sgallagh: yeah, I know | 16:57 |
| nirik | sgallagh: and to ramp up/work on new needs. | 16:57 |
| sgallagh | Yes | 16:57 |
| Viking-Ice | there is more then just automation that needs to be worked on < sigh> | 16:57 |
| * handsome_pirate notes that if we don't get that time, he does have enough pikes for FESCo | 16:58 | |
| sgallagh | Viking-Ice: There's plenty that needs work. However automation is a big bang for the buck. It frees people up to work on those other things | 16:58 |
| adamw | sgallagh: what worries me slightly is the prospect that we end up saying 'well, fedora.next isn't ready yet but it sure will be soon, let's wait for it!' then in *february or march* the call comes 'yeah...no fedora.next, let's just do a quick release of the old stuff in august, we don't need to change anything because it all worked so well last time, right?' | 16:58 |
| nirik | handsome_pirate: it's already scheduled. Put yer pikes away. ;) | 16:58 |
| tflink | handsome_pirate: that seems a bit ... excessive | 16:58 |
| Viking-Ice | handsome_pirate, there is no use for us getting that time unless we can map out what to use it for | 16:58 |
| Viking-Ice | we have to wait for the wg sheningan output until we know what to use that time for | 16:59 |
| handsome_pirate | Viking-Ice: We have quite a bit of it mapped out already | 16:59 |
| nirik | adamw: I would be very against that... as I think others would be too. | 16:59 |
| adamw | well, that's good. i just like worst case scenarios. | 16:59 |
| sgallagh | adamw: I'll state on the record right now: my vote will not to be fewer than six months to deliver a "traditional" F21 release, if we choose that route. | 16:59 |
| handsome_pirate | adamw: That's why I have the pikes | 16:59 |
| cmurf | yeah it's commit or die in January | 16:59 |
| nirik | sgallagh: +1 | 16:59 |
| cmurf | that's far enough out as it is | 16:59 |
| sgallagh | So if we decide in March that Fedora.next is F22, then the earliest you worry about is late 'September | 17:00 |
| Viking-Ice | adamw, I would not be surprised if that worst case scenario of yours comes to pass | 17:00 |
| adamw | so anyhoo, i doubt we have time to really discuss the big topic for this section either, i was thinking we could talk about what we can do with the criteria and validation tests to make things better for f21 | 17:00 |
| adamw | but we've had an hour and that's probably a half hour topic | 17:00 |
| adamw | sgallagh: that'd be good. | 17:00 |
| sgallagh | Viking-Ice: Two FESCo members just stated, in writing, that this is not what we will ask for. | 17:01 |
| adamw | one thing we could knock off, though: does someone want to be the Test Day organizer for f21 cycle? i was thinking it'd be a good thing for roshi, but that's just an idea | 17:02 |
| cmurf | so is the time frame for F21 the same regardless of whether it's Fedora.next or Fedora.current? | 17:02 |
| Viking-Ice | sgallagh, I will believe it when I see it in actions things have been said and what has actually been done has contradict that | 17:02 |
| Viking-Ice | in the past | 17:02 |
| Viking-Ice | adamw, no organize tracker takes care of that | 17:02 |
| Viking-Ice | want a test day file a ticket | 17:02 |
| adamw | cmurf: the *minimum* frame is the same, anyway. presumably it's up to fesco to decide whether it thinks we should do 'fedora.next on fedora.old time', 'fedora.next but take longer for the initial release', or 'abort! abort! abort!' | 17:02 |
| Viking-Ice | first come first serve | 17:02 |
| Viking-Ice | roshi can just always take those tickets if he wants to ( or someone else ) | 17:03 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: someone has to read all the tickets, help people who need help to organize their event, reconcile dates, post the schedule, ensure the events actually run properly, post news about them... | 17:03 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: well they don't *have* to, but it works out well if someone does | 17:03 |
| sgallagh | cmurf: We made a guarantee that nothing would come sooner than August, and based on the WG output might be granted additional time. | 17:03 |
| cmurf | adamw: so there's maybe a 50/50 chance there will be one release of Fedora in 2014 | 17:03 |
| Viking-Ice | adamw, that someone can be anyone | 17:03 |
| Viking-Ice | and should be | 17:03 |
| adamw | cmurf: i am not, at this point, prepared to stick numbers on anything | 17:03 |
| cmurf | actually, it sounds like 100% | 17:03 |
| roshi | I like helping with the test days | 17:04 |
| cmurf | there seems to be no way in that timing for there to be more than one | 17:04 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: sure, multiple people can always do it, just seems like from experience test days work best when someone steps up to make sure it always happens | 17:04 |
| nirik | cmurf: right, one release next year. | 17:04 |
| roshi | and I'm fine with just taking the tickets as Viking-Ice suggests | 17:04 |
| sgallagh | cmurf: That depends in part on the WG output and what defines Fedora releases going forward. There's been some chatter about the Base having a more rapid cycle, but we need to see where that goes. | 17:04 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: but hey, your approach is the correct one in 'policy' terms i think, let's just say everyone please help out with test day stuff, and roshi will likely look to pick up a lot of them | 17:04 |
| Viking-Ice | adamw, as I said roshi can then always beat people grabbing those tickets | 17:04 |
| roshi | I don't think anyone needs to be beaten | 17:05 |
| roshi | :P | 17:05 |
| adamw | yeah, there isn't usually a stampede to trac :P | 17:05 |
| Viking-Ice | adamw, doing it this way leaves rooms for others to participate and learn in the process ( which you exclude if roshi or someone else own the process ) | 17:05 |
| adamw | #info everyone please help out with test days as you can, roshi will look to make sure they aren't neglected | 17:05 |
| Viking-Ice | plus you cant depend on RH employees anyway so... | 17:05 |
| roshi | Viking-Ice: I don't want to own the process - or any process | 17:06 |
| cmurf | oh dear | 17:06 |
| Viking-Ice | roshi, nor should you | 17:06 |
| adamw | okay then | 17:06 |
| roshi | I jsut want to be able to help move things along, when and where they're needed :) | 17:06 |
| adamw | any other topics for f21 planning we can cover in the, er, negative six minutes we have left? :) | 17:06 |
| adamw | i guess we'll table the criteria/matrix stuff for next week | 17:07 |
| danofsatx | are we having a meeting next week? | 17:07 |
| danofsatx | it *is* two days before Christmas | 17:07 |
| roshi | yeah, which is a great time to pontificate on what ifs danofsatx | 17:07 |
| adamw | well, let's say 'next time' | 17:07 |
| cmurf | F21 planning: I don't know how to achieve this but I think it's inherently valuable to stick the final release date, as it's set once beta go has occurred. | 17:08 |
| Viking-Ice | you mean fake christmas with coca cola santa | 17:08 |
| adamw | but if people want to, we can | 17:08 |
| Viking-Ice | Yule (real christmas ) is on the 21 dec | 17:08 |
| adamw | cmurf: yeah, i would like that too, it's what i'm trying to work towards with these proposals | 17:08 |
| cmurf | yeah, a 2 week slip on beta is not the same as a 2 week slip of final | 17:09 |
| adamw | that's why i keep talking about how can we ensure things we want working at final are actually tested by beta | 17:09 |
| adamw | anyhoo, next time :) | 17:09 |
| handsome_pirate | Viking-Ice: If you think about it, that Jesus dude was likely born in August | 17:09 |
| cmurf | yes please | 17:09 |
| handsome_pirate | Viking-Ice: So, it's all fake :) | 17:09 |
| adamw | handsome_pirate: dec 21 is the winter solstice, the one inarguably significant event that happens during the period :) | 17:10 |
| adamw | no matter your calendar or creed...everyone notes the solstice | 17:10 |
| cmurf | we value the photons from our local star | 17:10 |
| adamw | #topic Open floor | 17:11 |
| adamw | anyone have something important that needs to be covered now? | 17:11 |
| adamw | (since we're over time, trivial stuff to the list or next time) | 17:11 |
| handsome_pirate | adamw: Indeed :) | 17:11 |
| * danofsatx plans trivial question for qa channel later | 17:11 | |
| Viking-Ice | so post mortem release QA meeting on the 23 | 17:11 |
| * handsome_pirate wonders why the year isn't shifted so that Jan 1 is on the solstice | 17:12 | |
| Viking-Ice | danofsatx 42 | 17:12 |
| handsome_pirate | lol | 17:12 |
| adamw | Viking-Ice: something like that...well, figure this was the post mortem, next week is the reanimation :P | 17:13 |
| cmurf | bring a cat | 17:13 |
| Viking-Ice | well we have 13 santa's so I bring one of the with me | 17:13 |
| * danofsatx wonders if the wife will miss her pure black devil of a feline | 17:14 | |
| handsome_pirate | cmurf: cat? | 17:14 |
| Viking-Ice | or as we call them yule lads | 17:14 |
| Viking-Ice | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule_Lads | 17:14 |
| handsome_pirate | cmurf: I usually have my towel with me, but a cat? | 17:14 |
| cmurf | reanimations require at least one cat per reanimation, duh | 17:14 |
| Viking-Ice | ignore that coca cola dress they are wearing | 17:15 |
| Viking-Ice | on that wikipedia image | 17:15 |
| cmurf | ok so Rawhide is how raw usually? | 17:15 |
| satellit_e | Schrodinger's cat? | 17:15 |
| adamw | sounds like december is the ideal time of year to be a shoe thief in iceland | 17:15 |
| cmurf | is there at least one build a week that'll install and boot or what? | 17:15 |
| handsome_pirate | cmurf: Bring a towel | 17:15 |
| handsome_pirate | adamw: LOL | 17:15 |
| handsome_pirate | adamw: December is a bad time to be in Iceland | 17:16 |
| adamw | cmurf: installing rawhide is usually the dodgiest part, it's usually easier to install previous release and update to it | 17:16 |
| Viking-Ice | adamw, yeah if you only want to steal left shoes ;) | 17:16 |
| roshi | for remember, everyone should watch "Rare Exports" for christmas | 17:16 |
| adamw | cmurf: i fedup'ed to rawhide (first time i ever tried that) two days ago, went fine | 17:16 |
| sgallagh | adamw: That's one place where I've been trying to recommend some automation work. | 17:16 |
| cmurf | ok, and how about trying to blow up anaconda 21 | 17:16 |
| nirik | yeah, once you are installed, it's usually fine... there's occasional breakage, but usually workaroundable until it gets fixed | 17:16 |
| adamw | sgallagh: which place? | 17:16 |
| sgallagh | Build into the composes that it should reject any build for which a simple 'minimal' install fails. | 17:16 |
| Viking-Ice | handsome_pirate, mid Janurary to end of February or early mars is a bad time to be in Icelands | 17:16 |
| adamw | sgallagh: well, it's not like we're unaware of the *place*. | 17:17 |
| nirik | sgallagh: we should circle back around to that... we had a good meeting or two on it. ;) | 17:17 |
| adamw | sgallagh: it's the *work* bit that's the tricky part. | 17:17 |
| sgallagh | nirik: Yes, that would be interesting. | 17:17 |
| adamw | sgallagh: once upon a time, a year or two ago, we had an autoqa test that did a kickstart-driven minimal install of fedora and reported the error if it failed. | 17:17 |
| sgallagh | adamw: Certainly. I'd like to hear more about that, because I'd like to be able to include a request for the time to accomplish that as part of our post-WG-report requests. | 17:17 |
| adamw | that took several months of work and stopped working soon after, because automated tests need care and feeding and we didn't have the time because we don't have enough people and we're on a release train... | 17:17 |
| adamw | anyhoo | 17:18 |
| Viking-Ice | adamw, have the WG write those automation test they need | 17:18 |
| adamw | we're now 18 mins over time, so i guess we'll be back next week :) | 17:18 |
| sgallagh | Viking-Ice: Build us a framework and we'll do our best. | 17:18 |
| adamw | we built two, take yer pick :P | 17:18 |
| Viking-Ice | or we adopt an existing one | 17:18 |
| adamw | thanks for coming, folks | 17:19 |
| adamw | #endmeeting | 17:19 |
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