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<h1>fedora-devel-20070821-meeting.txt</h1>
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<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- overholt has changed the topic to: Fedora Development Special Interest Group Inagural Meeting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">so, have people had a chance to check out: <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Development">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Development</a> ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">if so, anyone have any questions?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">drago01</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">overholt: yes and yes ;)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">drago01: cool, go ahead :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">drago01</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">overholt: you said *-devel would be included ...for all packages or selected ones?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">drago01: what do you think?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">drago01</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">I hope its 1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">hi hi</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">hey f13</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I'mhere, but rather busy (:</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">drago01</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">because on x86_64 it would be fun</td></tr>
<tr><td class="join" colspan="3">--> mjw (n=mark@wildebeest.demon.nl) has joined #fedora-meeting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">drago01</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">because it would pull in all i386 libs too</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">drago01: I wasn't thinking *all* packages (especially x86_64), but most "important" ones</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">yeah</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">hey mjw</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">:)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">drago01</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">overholt: ok ;)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">drago01: the x86_64 image will be huge but I don't want it to be giant</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">drago01: I like what Colin suggested on the mailing list regarding specific audiences</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* drago01 goes to read it again</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">any other questions ATM?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I have one question</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">So what is the scope?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">are you targetting Live spins or the traditional Choose Your Own Adventure type spins?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I'd like to have a Live image. I realize it'll be DVD-sized, but we'll try to keep it < 2 GB</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">so at least *some* USB people can boot it :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">abadger1999: well, what Colin said on the mailing list sounds good to me</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">just throwing out some goals here:</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">- draw in upstream developers by making Fedora so good for development (tools, etc.)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">- ease new developers into Fedora and the FOSS community</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">- make Fedora maintainers' jobs easier</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">ok. A Live image will make it a lot easier to modify things after the fact</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: can you elaborate?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: don't if it's not important</td></tr>
<tr><td class="join" colspan="3">--> caillon (n=caillon@mithril.returnzero.com) has joined #fedora-meeting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">overholt: think of %post in kickstart, you can basically modify things after the packages are installed before it's wrapped up into an image.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: ah, that's what you mean. cool.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">overholt: whereas with traditional installers it's a lot harder to do these sort of post install customizations automatically</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">understood</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">in case anyone was wondering about what Colin said that I liked, see: <a href="https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-August/msg01374.html">https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-August/msg01374.html</a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="part" colspan="3"><-- bpepple|lt has quit ("Ex-Chat")</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I don't think those are the only audiences we'll try to target, but they're a start</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I think at first we'll get '1) People developing on Fedora/GNOME/KDE ("system/community" developers)'</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">'cause that's easiest with what we've got</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">yep. pretty quick to do for F8 as well</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">Do you want to make one spin for all audiences or separate spins for each audience?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">developer documentation will be important</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">abadger1999: good question. I think long-term I'd like to see separate spins but that might get messy.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">abadger1999: what do you think?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">abadger1999: they overlap quite heavily actually</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">IMO</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">They both have drawbacks.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">I'd go for separate spins because I think you'll fill a DVD without satisfying all audiences.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">for an example of documentation, jjohnstn and I put together a little Eclipse cheatsheet for using the cdt and the autotools plugin. I'd love to see more of that kind of thing.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">if you were doing a traditional style spin, you could have all the packages for each audience on the media, but have pre-set checkboxes for which the person wants to install</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">overholt: O, that is what you were talking about. Cool. Would a developer spin also include all the debuginfo? Especially with the new buildid stuff going into fedora 8 things should nicely fall together.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">(like the Office and Whatever) checkboxes we have now for the Fedora spin</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">But have a base set of packages for all your spins (mainly applications or servers) and then layer things on top: (python OR java OR C development)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">mjw: we can't *include* the debuginfo 'cause I think it'll get too big</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> marek mbacovsk_ mbonnet mbonnet_ mdomschbot mether mjw mmcgrath Morpheus mxcarron </td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">mjw: but we can make it easy to install</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">and because even developers don't use all debuginfo ever</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">overholt: OK, but can we have an option "create matching debuginfo CD"?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13's idea is good - maybe we can do that for F8 and look to separate, more targetted spins for F9 and beyond</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">DVDs.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">fitzsim</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">overholt: another nice feature would be auto-installation of relevant debuginfo packages</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">fitzsim: how would we define "relevant"?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">fitzsim: or do you mean at runtime?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">fitzsim</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">overholt: like tying gdb/frysk into PackageKit</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I'd love to see at runtime</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">fitzsim: that sounds like a yum-plugin</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">fitzsim: yes!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">frysk has some scripts to get the "relevant" debuginfo packages btw.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">mjw: oh neat</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I want to see something with Eclipse too where I want to develop a certain type of app or something and it prompts me to install relevant libraries/-devel packages</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">fitzsim</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">gdb program -> a request goes to PackageKit to download program.debuginfo.rpm</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">mjw: I want to get some frysk exposure with this. it's not well understood IMO. or known about :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">fitzsim</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">mjw: is it automatic though?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="join" colspan="3">--> walters (n=walters@static-71-243-117-136.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #fedora-meeting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I'd love to see more integration between Eclipse and koji, but if we move away from CVS it'll kinda kill a large part of the 'I' in IDE :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">note that PackageKit is a bit of a ways off</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">walters: hey Colin</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">fitzsim</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">mjw: when I'm debugging something, it's quite fiddly to have to quit gdb, open a terminal, fiddle with yum repos, and install the right debuginfo package</td></tr>
<tr><td class="join" colspan="3">--> jrb (i=jrb@nat/redhat/x-547775c2d15df965) has joined #fedora-meeting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">overholt: hey, cool to see this happening</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">fitzsim</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">mjw: then re-start the debugging session</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">overholt: nah, that's just motivation to make the Eclipse git plugins better.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">for those just joining we were talking about some ideas for the future</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">fitzsim</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">mjw: (or fiddle with gdb's after-the-fact debuginfo loading commands)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">auto-installation of relevant debuginfo, docs/tutorials on how to write apps, etc.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">let's talk about new developers for a minute</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">a lot of people may be coming from a GUI development environment on Windows or Mac OS</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">There is a simple fdebugrpm script that gets you a list of debuginfo rpms to install for an executable or core file.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">hence me wanting to beef up our Eclipse integration</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">any other thoughts surrounding new developers?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">Teresa is working on that and roland is helping out to make it match the buildid stuff.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">fitzsim</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">overholt: how is the eclipse AJAX tools situation?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">is everyone okay with trying (we'll see how it pans out) to have just one DVD for F8 and work on more targetted spins for F9 and beyond?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">fitzsim: there are tools, but I'm not super-familiar with them</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">fitzsim: It doesn't yet work live while debugging though.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">fitzsim: there's the JBossIDE and Exadel stuff, too</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">fitzsim: Good point.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">speaking of which, it'd be cool to have JBoss</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">overholt: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">overholt: i think one DVD is good. let's cross the other stuff if/when we need to</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">abadger1999: thanks</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">caillon: k</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">agreed</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">fitzsim</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">oh right, JBoss isn't in yet :(</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">vivekl mentioned they were going to try for F8</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">but it's not an approved feature AFAIK</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* overholt goes to summon vivekl</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">in terms of Eclipse stuff, I personally want to have some pre-configured CVS/SVN locations, pre-configured bugzilla and trac locations (for Mylyn), and some cheatsheets</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">fitzsim</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">overholt: I'm just thinking for new developers another audience is "webapps", and there seems to be room there for tools selection and integration (e.g. auto-configuration of test httpd server)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">fitzsim: good point</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">yeah, walters pointed that out on the list too</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">fitzsim: although I think a pre-configured http server may be a >= F9-level thing</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I've been told vivekl is on vacation</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">fitzsim</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">the webapps audience is probably a later thing, if you want to focus on "system/community" first</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">but I'm pretty sure JBoss AS won't make F8 anyway</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I think "system/community" is a good first goal</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">fitzsim: and hopefully we can get some webapp people involved for that</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">i've been spending a lot of time the last few months switching between fedora package development and web development on mugshot, and it's really very very different</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">walters: can you elaborate?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">overholt: Mylyn does trac?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">mjw: yes</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">O cool! I just setup a trac instance for frysk :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">mjw: I'd love to see pre-configured "so you wanna hack on <insert fedora/fedora-related project here>? well, just click this and we'll check it out for you!"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">Les Howells also wrote me a good email about what he expects in making life easier for someone wanting to write "an X app" or "a gnome app"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">do we currently have groups (the rpm Group: tag) that differentiate between webdev,appdev,distrodev?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="part" colspan="3"><-- jrb has quit ("Leaving")</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">caillon: I don't know. f13?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">the rpm Group tag is largely ignored and useless</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">any sort of grouping you want to do should be done in comps</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">ok</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">overholt: well...it's a big subject but a lot of the distribution is focused on development of itself (like how the "Development" group is gcc/automake), whereas developing external projects you can use eclipse on your bigass one-directory-tree project and largely ignore the os</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">walters: yes. so do you have suggestions for how we can make it easier for non-OS-developing people?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">walters: I fear we may need to target F9 for that, but I'm very interested in low-hanging fruit</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">well, icedtea is a big step forward for java developers</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">indeed</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">for those on x86 and x86_64 anyway :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">fitzsim: we're going to make it, right?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">mjw: bah</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">Although looking at cacao it seems we now also get s390! :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">if we can figure out the app selection we need for each type, we could probably set this up in comps and offer the options in anaconda. not sure how much work that is, but i guess it's just data munging...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, is that right?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">but...i don't know...i think we have to sit down and look at what the experience is right now for someone who's like "I want to create a website", and they have fedora</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I like the idea of pre-configured httpd for development, etch.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">fitzsim</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">overholt: yes, it's just waiting for a reviewer now</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">s/h//</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">fitzsim</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">overholt: ;-)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">fitzsim: I'll probably do it :)</td></tr>
<tr><td class="join" colspan="3">--> k0k (n=k0k@200-35-89-180.static.telcel.net.ve) has joined #fedora-meeting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">basically, how can we improve on a process like this? <a href="http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/install/">http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/install/</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">ugh</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I *hope* we can improve on that :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">if you look at ruby on rails, it suggests using its own gems thing <a href="http://www.rubyonrails.org/down">http://www.rubyonrails.org/down</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">caillon: yes, you can create new categories and with in those groups to collect packages</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">caillon: over time you can fine tune those groupings, and use them to generate spins, such as Live images and traditional installers</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">caillon: they're even accessable via 'yum grouplist' and pirut</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13: does creating those mean they'd be available in the normal spins?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">if I add them to the manifest yes, or if somebody enables the 'everything' repo at install time (which we're trying to make easier)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">we (some Eclipse peeps at Red Hat) have recently bit the bullet and decided we need to diverge from upstream eclipse.org to get the experience(s) we want</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">how much will we have to diverge from Fedora "upstream"?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13: okay, but we won't see it next to Office Productivity, GNOME Desktop, KDE Desktop, Games, etc</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">ugh, I hate how every language wants to have it's own packaging system</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">caillon: you would if one of the two requirements I stated were met.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">nod</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">overholt: gems, eggs, jars, streams, cpan, etc...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">i think we're largely uninterested in the 'everything' case</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: ah. don't forget OSGi jars :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">overholt: seems like it's the cool thing to create your own language specific software packaging system, often times incompatible with traditional packaging.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: yup.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: I'm working with eclipse.org on their next release to make things better for us.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13: it's i18n-l10n-nih-syndrome</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">and "we need cross-platform and nothing's cross-platform enough for us" syndrome</td></tr>
<tr><td class="part" colspan="3"><-- ricky has quit (Client Quit)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">yeah</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I think we've covered most of what I wanted to talk about. does anyone have anything else or should we continue talking about ideas?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">overholt: That trac support in mylar is cute!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jjohnstn: what other ideas did we talk about the other day?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I'll just note that fiddling with groupings is really easy</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">mjw: I'm glad you think so :) I've never working on a trac-using project so I haven't played with it.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">jjohnstn</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">overholt: I think they've been covered</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">k</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: I have a question for you</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">you can create a local repo dir with maybe one package, or no package in it, use createrepo -g <compsefile> on it, and add it to your yum repos. THen when you fire up pirut, you'll see the new groups even though the packages come from the FEdora repos</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: how can SIGs go about getting their spins included as "official" ones?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">very easy to play with groupings and stuff quickly.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">scsibear</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">walters: about the pre-configured webserver for development, phpeclipse has something like that. i'm not sure if i did it the "right" way, but it works.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">overholt: use only fedora packages AIUI</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">So, for frysk, what one would one is that it not only detects the debuginfo packages needed for a full session, but then also installs them before letting the user continue?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">caillon: and put our .ks somewhere?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">overholt: basically you expend the effort to make a few trial spins and assign somebody to be on the hook for keeping it going. Somebody from the sig should probably start reporting to rel-eng meetings and such.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">overholt: might have to wait for the next Feature freeze to become an official release, but can be done on the side.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: okay. I've made some trial spins but I'll get things ironed out a bit more. I can be on the hook :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: k</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13: ah good to know, probably should bring that up at the desktop one tomorrow</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">mjw: I'm not sure</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">walters</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">overholt: one thing I would suggest is to basically sit down and install from the f7 live cd as it is now, then take on the role of various developers in 1) 2) 3) and pretend you don't know a lot about fedora (no specific package names etc) and then try to start doing development</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">mjw: on the slightly more bureaucratic side of things, can you be our frysk point person?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">overholt: And if so, is there an example of a program that does that "I know I need these packages, go and install them now"?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">overholt: No :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">walters: okay</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">mjw: I can't think of such an app OTTOMH</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">overholt: But that is just bureaucratic, cagney is the person trying to get through the maintainer process first.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">Although I believe we are all encouraged to sign up and become maintainers.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* f13 always thought that such an app would just have Requires: in the spec to begin with</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">roland is obviously the person doing all the buildid stuff and teresa is the person doing the fdebugrpm stuff btw.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">okay, well I think we're good to go here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I'll send some more mail re-capping</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">mjw</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">f13: But in the case of frysk it would be something like "O, I see you are trying to analyse this core file generated by /bin/bash, to get more info about it it would be great if you installed the debuginfo packages for glibc, bash, ld, etc."</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">if anyone has questions/comments/flames/whatever, just email me overholt at redhat.com</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">mjw: yeah, that's indeed a special case.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">anyone have anything else for today?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">is this time okay? (I guess if you're here, it's okay so that's probably redundant)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">haha</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">same time next week</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I'm good with it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">nobody complained on the list either</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">so seems okay</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I'll get some test spins done by then and try to come up with more developer scenarios we'd like to support and how to support them</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">if others could do the same, it'd be cool</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">so, I guess we'll adjourn. going once.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">no more questions/comments?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">going twice.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">....</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">adjourned</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">-----meeting end------</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">thanks, everyone</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">overholt</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I think we've get some great stuff coming :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">caillon</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">nod</td></tr>
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