Meeting:Docs USC students Installation Guide planning IRC log 20080924
From FedoraProject
| -!- JohnNguyen [n=nsdkhd@129.252.70.42] has joined #fedora-docs | 16:05 | |
| JohnNguyen | hello | 16:06 |
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| -!- jmooney [n=soulspec@129.252.70.40] has joined #fedora-docs | 16:06 | |
| JohnNguyen | * mm | 16:07 |
| jmtaylor | hi | 16:09 |
| JohnNguyen | is quaid here? | 16:18 |
| -!- ianweller_afk is now known as ianweller | 16:21 | |
| -!- nman64 [n=n-man@fedora/nman64] has joined #fedora-docs | 16:21 | |
| quaid | JohnNguyen: howdy | 16:24 |
| JohnNguyen | hi | 16:26 |
| JohnNguyen | i have my group here with us to learn docbook | 16:26 |
| quaid | ok, cool | 16:27 |
| JohnNguyen | Hi jmooney | 16:27 |
| jmooney | hey john | 16:27 |
| jmooney | quaid: is docbook a downloadable program or is it through a web site? | 16:28 |
| quaid | jmooney: yes to both :), that is ... | 16:28 |
| ivazquez | It's an XML application. | 16:28 |
| quaid | jmooney: in the comparison with HTML | 16:29 |
| quaid | HTML is markup text that is rendered directly by a Web browser | 16:29 |
| quaid | DocBook XML can actually be rendered directly by the browser, | 16:29 |
| quaid | but | 16:29 |
| quaid | typically you use a stand alone application or toolchain | 16:29 |
| ryanlerch | like publican! | 16:30 |
| quaid | to convert from XML to e.g. HTML + CSS, then view with browser as normal | 16:30 |
| JohnNguyen | So we need to use publican? | 16:30 |
| quaid | right, publican is a toolchain that bundles several tools that process, render, convert, etc. | 16:30 |
| quaid | JohnNguyen: ideally, yes | 16:30 |
| quaid | JohnNguyen: ultimately ... | 16:30 |
| quaid | the Installation Guide is going to be written to build most easily with publican | 16:31 |
| jmooney | that clears a few things up :) | 16:31 |
| JohnNguyen | So we need to be familiar with publican before the beta release? | 16:31 |
| quaid | but it _can_ build with other tools, since it is "just docBook" | 16:31 |
| quaid | yes, the tools you'll use are: | 16:31 |
| quaid | * text editor (such as Emacs) to edit the files | 16:31 |
| quaid | * publican to build on the command line | 16:31 |
| mdious | JohnNguyen: there is a publican guide here: <http://jfearn.fedorapeople.org/Publican/> | 16:31 |
| quaid | * git to check out and commit changes to the install-guide XML | 16:32 |
| quaid | that's the main stuff | 16:32 |
| ryanlerch | JohnNguyen: feel free to ask any publican q's here! | 16:32 |
| jmooney | what does git mean? | 16:32 |
| quaid | git is | 16:32 |
| ryanlerch | version control | 16:32 |
| mdious | too hard to use if you have not used version control before. ZING! ;) | 16:32 |
| quaid | a distributed source version control tool | 16:33 |
| quaid | mdious: disagree :) ... they all have the same paradigms, at that point when new, one is as hard as another | 16:33 |
| quaid | are you all familiar | 16:33 |
| JohnNguyen | No. we are not | 16:33 |
| jmooney | alright im a need you to talk to me like i dont know anything about computers | 16:33 |
| jmooney | erick | 16:33 |
| quaid | with version control systems (VCS) such as CVS, Subversion (SVN), etc.? | 16:33 |
| jmooney | what does that mean | 16:33 |
| * quaid explains | 16:34 | |
| quaid | when you are working with "just text" | 16:34 |
| quaid | that is, source text, as in the code of the program or the text of a document in a source such as XML | 16:34 |
| ryanlerch | http://betterexplained.com/articles/a-visual-guide-to-version-control/ | 16:35 |
| quaid | we use a VCS as a way to collaborate; keep track of changes | 16:35 |
| quaid | a VCS lets you designate one location (on a server, usually) | 16:35 |
| quaid | that hosts the source for everyone | 16:35 |
| quaid | then you check out a copy of the source | 16:36 |
| quaid | make your edits | 16:36 |
| quaid | and check that back in | 16:36 |
| quaid | the VCS records the changes between what was in the repository before and after your change | 16:36 |
| quaid | it keeps track of all those changes over time, so you can revert to a specific change | 16:36 |
| quaid | if you've ever used | 16:36 |
| quaid | the change highlighting feature in e.g. MS Word or OpenOffice.org | 16:36 |
| quaid | that is similar, with a full VCS being like that x100 in terms of function and value. | 16:37 |
| * quaid lets that hang with ryanlerch's article to see how it sinks in | 16:37 | |
| jmooney | ok, that makes sense. I think we get it now :) | 16:37 |
| jmooney | good explanation | 16:37 |
| JohnNguyen | How do you make it color comments? | 16:37 |
| quaid | well, the analogy | 16:38 |
| quaid | to openoffice.org | 16:38 |
| quaid | isn't perfect. | 16:38 |
| quaid | but tools can show the difference between versions in various ways | 16:38 |
| quaid | once you have the data stored, parsing the data to make charts, graphs, color differences, etc. is much easier. | 16:39 |
| quaid | in this case, we are using a VCS called 'git' | 16:39 |
| quaid | it is a bit different from older VCS systems, such as CVS or Subversion, because it is 'distributed' | 16:39 |
| quaid | functionally, it works the same as older VCS do | 16:40 |
| mdious | "kompare" from the kdesdk package is quite nice for pretty colours and diffing :) | 16:40 |
| quaid | but it lets you make a clone of the central repository, do whatever you want in your clone, and sanely merge that back to an upstream/central that you designate. | 16:40 |
| quaid | the workflow with git is like this: | 16:41 |
| quaid | 1. clone the main git repository | 16:41 |
| quaid | 2. edit, make changes | 16:41 |
| quaid | 3. commit those changes to your local git copy | 16:41 |
| quaid | 4. merge all changes to the remote, central git on fedorahosted.org/install-guide | 16:41 |
| quaid | 5. the rest of us sync our clone/copy after you merge to the central | 16:41 |
| quaid | it is _very_ smart at dealing with multiple editors in the same file | 16:42 |
| quaid | that is, if you edit a file from lines 22 to 66, and I edit line 12, 33, and 100 to 150 | 16:42 |
| quaid | git will do a very smart merge, including interweaving unless our edits | 16:42 |
| quaid | are in direct conflict | 16:42 |
| quaid | so now, as it happens, we have the install-guide available in XML | 16:44 |
| quaid | so you can check it out and start learning on it directly | 16:44 |
| quaid | with the caveat | 16:44 |
| quaid | that we are making some changes to the book so it builds using publican | 16:44 |
| quaid | (instead of the Fedora Docs toolchain) | 16:45 |
| quaid | so, it builds as-is right now, so there is good value in learning from the working XML already. | 16:45 |
| quaid | https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/browser | 16:45 |
| * quaid looks for that good git usage tutorial | 16:45 | |
| quaid | JohnNguyen,jmooney ... so I'm presuming you are using Fedora machines for this work, somehow. | 16:47 |
| quaid | it is possible to do most of this from other OSes, but it introduces different hurdles. | 16:48 |
| mdious | quaid: G sent me <http://git.or.cz/course/svn.html> which was good coming from using svn... | 16:48 |
| ianweller | quaid: do you think we need to change wiki cleanup admonitions to a gray color and separate them from  | 16:49 |
| jmooney | we have virtual machines loaded, will this work? | 16:49 |
| quaid | ianweller: striped background? | 16:49 |
| quaid | jmooney: it should, as long as you can install software to it | 16:50 |
| ianweller | quaid: hmm maybe that's a possibility | 16:50 |
| JohnNguyen | quaid: I've ran the live cd | 16:50 |
| ianweller | something like light gray diagonal stripes (15px wide or so) on lighter gray? | 16:50 |
| quaid | ooh | 16:50 |
| * ianweller will mock it up later this evening and throw it at the list | 16:50 | |
| quaid | JohnNguyen: one option is to install a live F9 image to a USB key; that lets you update and install software | 16:51 |
| JohnNguyen | quaid: ke4qqq has told us about that before | 16:52 |
| -!- ianweller is now known as ianweller_afk | 16:52 | |
| quaid | JohnNguyen: the challenge is that you need to install software that is not on that live CD | 16:52 |
| quaid | https://fedorahosted.org/liveusb-creator | 16:53 |
| quaid | that tool lets you create a live usb from Windows | 16:53 |
| quaid | JohnNguyen: as I think about each step ... | 16:56 |
| quaid | we'll need some kind of Fedora install you can add software to | 16:56 |
| quaid | for each part | 16:56 |
| quaid | in addition, writing the Installation Guide requires running the installer, which could be on stand-alone machine or in a virtual machine running in e.g. Fedora. | 16:57 |
| quaid | so, I can show you the DocBook right now | 16:57 |
| JohnNguyen | okay, thats what we are looking for | 16:57 |
| quaid | and check it out to the Live CD | 16:58 |
| -!- odin [n=ericklem@129.252.70.46] has joined #fedora-docs | 17:00 | |
| odin | ok people | 17:00 |
| odin | im here | 17:00 |
| JohnNguyen | quaid: What do you mean check it out? | 17:00 |
| jmooney | quaid: odin is with us | 17:00 |
| quaid | JohnNguyen: this is back to using git | 17:01 |
| JohnNguyen | jmooney: ok | 17:01 |
| quaid | when you get a copy a document source, it's called checking it out | 17:01 |
| quaid | there is some terminology covered here: http://betterexplained.com/articles/a-visual-guide-to-version-control/ | 17:01 |
| jmooney | that clears up alot | 17:03 |
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| odin | quaid can you explain to me the process you want us to go through to begin gathering valid information about Fedora 10 | 17:03 |
| quaid | odin: sure | 17:05 |
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| quaid | <process> | 17:06 |
| quaid | 1. get a working install of Fedora 9 that you can add software to | 17:06 |
| quaid | 2. check out a copy of the current Installation Guide source (in DocBook XML) | 17:06 |
| quaid | 3. download the F10 Beta (coming out next week) | 17:07 |
| quaid | 4. either on a different machine or in the F9 install using virtualization, run an install of Fedora 10 | 17:07 |
| quaid | 5. compare and contrast with the installation workflow documented in the F9 Installation Guide (which is what the XML source adheres to currently) | 17:08 |
| quaid | side note -- you can use the Installation Guide (aka IG) during step 1. as an aid and learning opportunity | 17:08 |
| quaid | 6. as you see what is different in the F10 installer, write changes directly in the XML | 17:08 |
| quaid | 6.1 you may discover big changes and need to coordinate with the team; a new screen, difference in the installer flow, etc. | 17:09 |
| quaid | 7. copy back (commit) your changes to the central source repository control (fedorahosted.org/install-guide/) | 17:09 |
| quaid | I think that is the main part of everything, actually | 17:10 |
| odin | good | 17:11 |
| odin | does fedora install differntly on diffent machines | 17:11 |
| odin | mainly drivers | 17:11 |
| odin | or i think you call it tar file | 17:11 |
| jmooney | quaid: thanks for the steps. that helps alot. | 17:12 |
| quaid | odin: side answer, a tar file is similar to a zip file | 17:13 |
| quaid | different hardware will use different drivers | 17:13 |
| quaid | there should be something that works for any hardware in the installer | 17:13 |
| quaid | if you have, for example, an old iBook or PowerBook based on the PowerPC (G3 or G4), you can install using the "PowerPC" or "PPC" version of Fedora | 17:14 |
| quaid | odin: but to answer what I think is your real question :) | 17:14 |
| quaid | odin: one guide covers all hardware types; there is no difference in the installation flow once the installing person has the correct installation source. | 17:14 |
| odin | is the installation source specific to the computer | 17:16 |
| quaid | there are several main types | 17:16 |
| quaid | 32-bit computers, 64-bit computers, and PPC | 17:16 |
| quaid | http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora | 17:16 |
| mdious | don't forget MIPS | 17:16 |
| quaid | mdious: we don't have a MIPS install for Fedora that I know of :) | 17:17 |
| mdious | :( | 17:17 |
| -!- susan [n=susan@nat/redhat/x-37a4737b1356dde4] has joined #fedora-docs | 17:17 | |
| mdious | maybe there will be one for F11 :0 | 17:17 |
| quaid | well, you are welcome to add it as a secondary architecture | 17:17 |
| quaid | there are some of those | 17:17 |
| odin | no thanks | 17:18 |
| odin | :) | 17:18 |
| quaid | heh, we'll let mdious do that if he wants | 17:19 |
| mdious | :) | 17:20 |
| JohnNguyen | :0 | 17:20 |
| jmooney | quaid: thats for pointing us in the right direction | 17:21 |
| quaid | jmooney: anytime, that's what I'm here for | 17:21 |
| quaid | don't hesitate to drop by at any time with any questions | 17:21 |
| quaid | "the only stupid questions are the ones you didn't ask" | 17:21 |
| jmooney | we just need to "nerd up" learn about docbook :) | 17:22 |
| quaid | or something like that :) | 17:22 |
| ryanlerch | the docbook reference is great! | 17:22 |
| ryanlerch | i use it all the time... | 17:22 |
| JohnNguyen | yay | 17:22 |
| ryanlerch | http://oreilly.com/catalog/docbook/chapter/book/docbook.html | 17:23 |
| ryanlerch | specifically http://oreilly.com/catalog/docbook/chapter/book/refelem.html | 17:23 |
| * quaid uses http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/ | 17:24 | |
| quaid | which is much the same thing | 17:24 |
| jmooney | ok, looks like a lot of info, great place to get started | 17:24 |
| ryanlerch | feel free to ask about the best tag to use... | 17:26 |
| ryanlerch | i do that all the time | 17:26 |
| JohnNguyen | So when we write up the IG, it has to be in docbook coding? | 17:26 |
| quaid | JohnNguyen: yes | 17:26 |
| quaid | when we work on a new guide, we often start it in the wiki and work there until it is ready for publishing, then we move it to XML | 17:27 |
| quaid | once in XML it is too difficult to go back and forth (currently) | 17:27 |
| quaid | we know that DocBook is not as easy to learn to edit as e.g. a wiki | 17:28 |
| quaid | and that there is no great WYSIWYG editor for it, either | 17:28 |
| quaid | ... it's all a continution evolution :) | 17:28 |
| -!- stickster_afk is now known as stickster_mtg | 17:28 | |
| quaid | ideally, "one day" we'll have a better two-way, so one can edit in a wiki or nice wysiwyg editor directly on the XML source in some way | 17:29 |
| -!- Tsagadai [n=ccurran@nat/redhat/x-4347c66763d59c83] has joined #fedora-docs | 17:29 | |
| JohnNguyen | quaid: For us to start it out, we can write it out first then worry about the coding in docbook when we have everything compile? | 17:30 |
| quaid | JohnNguyen: theoretically that would seem like a good idea; in practice it might be more work | 17:31 |
| quaid | it depends | 17:31 |
| quaid | e.g., take notes on changes or just make them? hard to know which is faster/easier | 17:31 |
| quaid | JohnNguyen: also, most of the docBook XML already exists, so it's much easier to change within that, and learn at the same time. | 17:31 |
| jmooney | can we modify the XML in any XML editor like (Expression Web)? | 17:33 |
| quaid | yes | 17:33 |
| odin | kick him out | 17:33 |
| * quaid doesn't know what Expression Web is though :) | 17:33 | |
| herlo | lol | 17:33 |
| odin | thats microsoft | 17:33 |
| G | yeah, Microsoft | 17:33 |
| quaid | ah, ha | 17:33 |
| JohnNguyen | uh oh | 17:33 |
| jmooney | lol | 17:34 |
| JohnNguyen | linux vs MS war | 17:34 |
| quaid | there have always been people who work on writing while not using Fedora | 17:34 |
| jmooney | i take it back... | 17:34 |
| G | jmooney: I edit XML in gedit/vi :) | 17:34 |
| quaid | but it is actually harder, I think | 17:34 |
| quaid | G: emacs! | 17:34 |
| herlo | as long as you have a valid license... | 17:34 |
| quaid | eh, sure | 17:34 |
| G | quaid: I've never bothered with emacs | 17:34 |
| quaid | but then the time spent is not spent learning open source tools | 17:34 |
| G | herlo: MS has a free version iirc :) | 17:35 |
| quaid | G: for DocBook it's the bomb | 17:35 |
| JohnNguyen | herlo: our university gives us a license to use it personally | 17:35 |
| quaid | the thing is | 17:35 |
| herlo | there u go | 17:35 |
| odin | ive use vi | 17:35 |
| herlo | but I'd recommend vi | 17:35 |
| stickster_mtg | Go Emacs! | 17:35 |
| quaid | we don't really want to use non-free tools for this, since that defeats the point | 17:35 |
| quaid | not the point for Fedora | 17:35 |
| quaid | but the point for you as students | 17:35 |
| odin | vi | 17:35 |
| JohnNguyen | YAY for emacs!!! | 17:35 |
| herlo | vim, actually | 17:35 |
| quaid | IMO, Emacs is MUCH better for Docbook | 17:35 |
| quaid | esp. if you come from Windows | 17:35 |
| odin | :wq ! | 17:35 |
| quaid | the keybindings are better | 17:35 |
| stickster_mtg | But the nice thing about XML is that you can pretty much edit it with anything. | 17:35 |
| quaid | (more familiar) | 17:36 |
| -!- stickster_mtg is now known as stickster | 17:36 | |
| quaid | and Emacs Docbook mode is great | 17:36 |
| quaid | yes, can edit with anything | 17:36 |
| herlo | quaid: you are smoking something. and I want some :) | 17:36 |
| JohnNguyen | care to share? | 17:36 |
| * stickster plugs his fingers in his ears LA LA LA LA | 17:36 | |
| quaid | but again, if the object is "using open source in coursework", then the goal of writing from within Fedora makes sense | 17:36 |
| -!- Tsagadai [n=ccurran@nat/redhat/x-4347c66763d59c83] has left #fedora-docs ["Leaving"] | 17:36 | |
| quaid | herlo: you bet, next time I see ya | 17:36 |
| quaid | herlo: but truly, Emacs + PSGML or XML mode does Docbook validation, tag completion, and stuff | 17:37 |
| mdious | Eclipse is the new Emacs ;) | 17:37 |
| stickster | mdious: Does it have a psychiatrist? | 17:37 |
| mdious | stickster: my point was that they both suck ;) ;) | 17:37 |
| G | stickster: these are the political discussions that inode was going crook at :) | 17:38 |
| stickster | haha | 17:38 |
| stickster | mdious obviously sits on the wrong side of the aisle | 17:38 |
| odin | k thanks for your help where going to get started now | 17:38 |
| stickster | oops, I can't tell if that's a statement or a question :-D | 17:39 |
| * G thinks that was 'we are' | 17:40 | |
| odin | back to Asgard | 17:40 |
| * quaid takes a break to make some coffee | 17:40 | |
| mdious | stickster: right, you've pushed me over the edge. You'll see what I mean in...a week or however long it takes ;) | 17:40 |
| mdious | mwahahawhawhahwahwahahawhahwahwhawhawhaw | 17:40 |
| JohnNguyen | wow! | 17:40 |
| G | mdious: don't say, your working on the next atomic bomb? :P | 17:40 |
| stickster | All my mail goes to a testing facility first, thankfully. | 17:40 |
| G | mdious: well documenting it I take it :P | 17:41 |
| jmooney | quaid we gota go now, thanks for all the help, we'll be in touch | 17:41 |
| -!- ianweller_afk is now known as ianweller | 17:41 | |
| jmtaylor | quaid: got time to run through where we are with the beta relnotes? | 17:41 |
| JohnNguyen | quaid: we will be in touch soon. | 17:42 |
| mdious | G, no, this is worse :) | 17:42 |
| G | mdious: worse than the atomic bomb? uh oh | 17:42 |
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| -!- jmooney [n=soulspec@129.252.70.40] has quit [] | 17:42 | |
| G | mdious: OH! I know :) | 17:42 |
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