QA/Meetings/20130930

Attendees

• adamw (99)
• tflink (49)
• dan408- (40)
• spstarr_work (34)
• cmurf (27)
• kparal (8)
• zodbot (6)
• nirik (4)
• satellit_e (4)
• kalev (3)
• roshi (3)
• brunowolff (2)
• handsome_pirate (2)
• spoore (1)
• jskladan1 (1)
• mkrizek (1)
• Cerlyn_ (1)
• pschindl (1)

Agenda

• Previous meeting follow-up
• Fedora 20 Beta pre-TC1 planning
• Open floor

Previous meeting follow-up

• tflink to talk to releng about where to file bugs in the cloud .ks and whether it needs to be packaged in the distro - not done yet, tflink forgot. Re-actioned for next week
• adamw to get F20 common bugs page up and populated - this was done, adam asked for people to add any more appropriate issues
• adamw to send the update criteria to 'production' - this was done
• adamw to check if any further criteria changes are needed to beta/final for arm/cloud - adam had taken a quick look, but thought more in-depth assessment was needed

Fedora 20 Beta pre-TC1 planning

• TC1 scheduled for the following day, 2013-10-01
• No-one was aware of any major problems which might affect TC schedule
• Live compose was failing due to a depcheck error, but releng already aware

Open floor

• tflink noted that there has been talk of having a short schedule for F21
• spstarr pointed out that KDE may be gaining official Wayland compatibility at that time, which would be a major change
• We agreed to relay our concerns regarding keeping any changes in a short-cycle release small and manageable to FESCo at their next meeting

Action items

• tflink or someone competent to talk to releng about where to file bugs in the cloud .ks and whether it needs to be packaged in the distro
• adamw to talk to anaconda devs and get a build done for beta tc1 with live keyboard bug fixed
• spstarr to work on iSCSI install testing
• adamw to look into nightly fail

IRC Log

adamw	#startmeeting Fedora QA meeting	15:00
zodbot	Meeting started Mon Sep 30 15:00:33 2013 UTC. The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.	15:00
zodbot	Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.	15:00
adamw	#meetingname fedora-qa	15:00
zodbot	The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'	15:00
adamw	#topic Roll call	15:00
* pschindl is here		15:00
* tflink is present		15:00
adamw	#chair tflink	15:00
zodbot	Current chairs: adamw tflink	15:00
* Cerlyn_ is here		15:00
* mkrizek here		15:00
* brunowolff is here		15:01
* roshi is here		15:01
* kparal here		15:01
* cmurf is conscious		15:01
cmurf	barely	15:01
adamw	ahoyhoy folks	15:01
adamw	welcome to the uk	15:01
tflink	wait, we're supposed to be conscious for the meeting?	15:02
* spoore is lurking		15:02
roshi	tflink: it's generally good form	15:02
roshi	but not *totally* required I don't think	15:02
spstarr_work	hello	15:02
adamw	it depends how good your bot is	15:02
adamw	mine has been running things here for the last six months	15:02
* adamw arrived in the UK yesterday, still getting settled		15:03
kparal	adamw: except for the unexpected breakdown during August/September	15:03
cmurf	adamw: Canada kicked you out?	15:03
adamw	just on vacation	15:03
adamw	well, visiting folks	15:04
cmurf	oh ok I thought there was a story. nevermind.	15:04
spstarr_work	:)	15:04
adamw	nothing to see here	15:04
adamw	continue about your business, citizens	15:04
adamw	alrighty, looks like that's everyone	15:04
adamw	#topic Previous meeting follow-up	15:05
adamw	tflink: "tflink to talk to releng about where to file bugs in the cloud .ks and whether it needs to be packaged in the distro" - anything?	15:05
tflink	nope, forgot	15:05
adamw	.fire tflink	15:06
zodbot	adamw fires tflink	15:06
adamw	#action tflink or someone competent to talk to releng about where to file bugs in the cloud .ks and whether it needs to be packaged in the distro	15:06
adamw	#info "adamw to get F20 common bugs page up and populated" - this was done: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F20_bugs . Do add or mark with 'CommonBugs' keyword any other bugs you think ought to be listed	15:06
spstarr_work	lol :D	15:07
adamw	#info "adamw to send the update criteria to 'production'" - I went ahead and did this, though can't remember if I sent an email note out about it or not	15:07
adamw	so that should be good for beta	15:07
cmurf	email went out i saw it	15:07
spstarr_work	while you banter I'll grab lunch downstairs quickly :)	15:07
adamw	#info "adamw to check if any further criteria changes are needed to beta/final for arm/cloud" - had a quick think about it and couldn't come up with any, but i should check with the arm and cloud folks	15:08
adamw	cmurf: a	15:08
adamw	ta	15:08
adamw	anyone got any notes on those items?	15:08
adamw	guess not!	15:09
adamw	#topic Fedora 20 Beta pre-TC1 planning	15:09
adamw	so, TC1 is due tomorrow	15:09
adamw	does anyone know of any crazy emergencies we should be worrying about at this point?	15:09
kparal	has somebody actually asked for compose yet?	15:10
* kparal has to find the ticket url		15:10
adamw	no, i usually just do it on the day	15:11
tflink	just to ask the anaconda devs to build with that live keyboard fix	15:11
adamw	no particular reason to file it ahead of time	15:11
adamw	tflink: ah, good point	15:11
adamw	new anaconda is always a good idea	15:11
tflink	people seem to be filing it about once a day	15:11
adamw	#action adamw to talk to anaconda devs and get a build done for beta tc1 with live keyboard bug fixed	15:11
adamw	yeah	15:11
adamw	GNOME 3.10 is done, so that's one thing out of the way	15:13
tflink	have we done any raid installs yet?	15:13
tflink	or many lvm-thinp installs?	15:13
spstarr_work	i dont have enough HD for RAID to test :/	15:13
adamw	i suppose we should focus on GNOME Software testing for beta	15:13
adamw	#info GNOME Software testing will be important for beta	15:13
spstarr_work	tflink: iSCSI tests?	15:13
tflink	spstarr_work: I haven't done any	15:14
cmurf	lvmp-thinp is working	15:14
adamw	tflink: i didn't :/	15:14
spstarr_work	tflink: I can look at doing some iSCSI testing	15:14
cmurf	minus the extra p	15:14
adamw	I don't have my RAID test box in the UK so I can't, either	15:14
adamw	all i've got here is the sony laptop	15:14
brunowolff	You should be able to test software raid with just one HD. It's dumb for normal use, but it should work for testing.	15:14
tflink	I have the hw to do raid install tests	15:14
adamw	software raid is easy to test in a VM anyway	15:15
adamw	it's hw / fw raid that's fiddly	15:15
tflink	true	15:15
tflink	at this point, I'll probably just wait for beta tc1, though	15:15
kparal	tflink: I did some raid tests during Alpha testing, both sw raid and fw raid	15:15
adamw	sure, that's not really a showstopper, just something to test at tc1	15:15
kparal	http://testdays.qa.fedoraproject.org/testcase_stats/QA_Testcase_Install_to_BIOS_RAID.html	15:16
tflink	kparal: did we address infra's hostname concerns for that machine?	15:17
cmurf	something that's coming up increasingly is hardware shipping with Intel Smart Response Technology combining SSD/HDD together. Linux cannot support this right now.	15:17
kparal	tflink: no idea	15:17
cmurf	anaconda doesn't have a test for this, it basically just tells the user they have no disks at all	15:17
cmurf	that's in the category of RAID	15:18
spstarr_work	#action spstarr to work on iSCSI install testing	15:19
* jskladan1 is late, but present		15:19
adamw	cmurf: if we can't support it, then there's nothing much to test...	15:19
adamw	cmurf: what could anaconda do instead? can we access the drives 'normally', is it just a 'note that SRT is in use rather than return nothing' case?	15:19
cmurf	we can't access the drives normally, but md reports back an imsm attribute that it knows it doesn't support, so anaconda could know this is ISRT and tell the user ISRT isn't yet supported	15:20
cmurf	there's a bug around here for md that i bounced back to anaconda for them to look at	15:21
* satellit_e listening		15:22
cmurf	. 890881	15:23
adamw	spstarr_work: not sure if #action works for non-chairs, i'll do it just in case	15:23
cmurf	.890881	15:23
adamw	#action spstarr to work on iSCSI install testing	15:23
adamw	cmurf: worth keeping an eye on, then, but not world-ending	15:23
cmurf	aparently the bot doesn't know what period means today	15:23
cmurf	https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=890881	15:23
tflink	isn't there a ssd cache test day scheduled? is that different than the isrt?	15:24
cmurf	no it's just an fyi about raid. when a vendor like HP ships a pile of hardware with it on by default… we're going to see users wondering why the installer shows them no drives and no error messages.	15:24
cmurf	tflink: it's the same general idea, as isrt, different implementation	15:25
adamw	tflink: I think that's the Linux in-kernel version of SSD caching	15:26
cmurf	there are two, dm-cache and bcache	15:26
cmurf	i don't see anaconda options for them though	15:27
adamw	of COURSE there are.	15:27
cmurf	maybe ping Rolf and find out what the anaconda plans are or are not for F20?	15:27
cmurf	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/SSD_cache	15:27
adamw	so, any other Beta business? it's looking more or less like 'steady as she goes'	15:28
adamw	i guess i'll do a live compose test today, or just grab the latest nightly and try that	15:28
spstarr_work	thanks	15:28
tflink	adamw: nightlies failed last night	15:28
adamw	ah, worth looking into then	15:29
tflink	releng is aware of the issue, dep conflict	15:29
adamw	#action adamw to look into nightly fail	15:29
adamw	ok ok	15:30
nirik	should be fixed tomorrow	15:30
adamw	.fire nirik	15:30
zodbot	adamw fires nirik	15:30
adamw	TOO LATE	15:30
spstarr_work	tomorrow isn't today	15:30
spstarr_work	you're too slow :P	15:30
adamw	darn right	15:31
adamw	okay, moving on!	15:31
adamw	#topic Open floor	15:31
spstarr_work	continuous integration requires rapid development and testing :P	15:31
tflink	as a heads up, there is noise of picking up the pace for f21	15:32
cmurf	bcache support for anaconda for F21. Just saw the email.	15:32
tflink	ie, having a "small" release and getting back on track for a may release	15:33
spstarr_work	'small' ?	15:33
* satellit_e FYI soas build Fedora-20-Nightly-x86_64-Live-soas-20130925.08-1.iso fixes https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1008569		15:33
tflink	yeah, what f20 was supposed to be	15:33
spstarr_work	considering KDE i hope will be closer to Wayland by 21... that wont be small	15:33
adamw	so, again with that plan	15:33
adamw	i thought a few weeks ago people were talking about doing a *longer* cycle	15:33
tflink	yeah, but the fedora.next proposal is taking time to come together	15:34
adamw	wayland is probably a good thing to keep in mind in making that decision, yeah...	15:34
tflink	the thought process is that there's no point in delaying a release until the various WGs have formed and figured some stuff out	15:34
spstarr_work	adamw: indeed	15:34
tflink	as always, there is pressure from gnome to get back to the old cadence	15:34
* handsome_pirate comes in just in time for open floor		15:35
tflink	tickets should be filed with fesco soon	15:35
adamw	#info tflink notes there's talk about a short F21 release cycle (again)	15:35
* handsome_pirate apologizes for getting distracted by work		15:35
spstarr_work	tflink: but gnome can't dictate Fedora alone	15:36
spstarr_work	if we treat KDE and MATE and others fairly	15:36
tflink	it sounds like there will be a call for proposals on what we would do with a delayed release	15:36
tflink	spstarr_work: I'm simply reporting what I've been hearing. not here to argue about which de does what	15:37
tflink	reporting/repeating	15:37
spstarr_work	tflink: ya	15:37
adamw	yeah, this is more impact on QA than arguing about the idea	15:37
adamw	if there is a plan for a 'small', short release, what do you folks think of proposing we go with a 'two release point' cycle?	15:38
adamw	beta and final only	15:38
adamw	i'd be worried about trying to cram alpha, beta and final into 4 months or less	15:38
tflink	if we wanted a delayed f21, we'd have to counter the argument that there's little point in investing in infra/qa before we know where the 1 -> 3 product thing is going	15:38
* kalev thinks it's an excellent plan.		15:38
tflink	adamw: but it's a small thing, that's no problem	15:38
tflink	kalev: I think most of the people pushing for it are not as heavily affected by the short turnaround	15:39
tflink	for the record, my comment about being a small thing should have had <sarcasm> tags on it :)	15:40
kalev	tflink: no, I mean it's an excellent plan to drop alpha to make it easier to shorten the cycle	15:40
kalev	easier on QA mostly.	15:40
tflink	kalev: if you're not the one testing this stuff, sure	15:40
tflink	dropping alpha on a release that would likely have more wayland stuff sounds like a bad idea to me	15:40
spstarr_work	adamw: but short release means no changes to Anaconda..?	15:40
adamw	well. that depends on what the definition of 'small' winds up being.	15:41
adamw	if this plan has legs, we'd definitely want to push for 'small' to be serious. i.e. no mass migrations to wayland, no major anaconda changes.	15:41
tflink	adamw: the question that comes to my mind is how to get that. commitments from devs?	15:43
cmurf	there is X amount of work for a release whether it's small or large so i don't see much point in a small release	15:44
cmurf	a lot of work for not a lot of gain	15:44
dan408-	hi	15:44
adamw	tflink: fesco laying down the rules at time of approving schedule?	15:44
dan408-	finally made it to a meeting	15:44
adamw	usually if fesco out and out says "This Shalt Be So", that's what happens	15:44
adamw	cmurf: the point is to get us back on our usual schedule, specifically its tie-in with GNOME and with various holidays	15:45
dan408-	is the plan to shorten f20 or f21?	15:45
tflink	but if we're delaying/dropping a release, I'm not sure I see much utility in stepping up the pace for another relase	15:45
tflink	dan408-: 21 or 22	15:45
tflink	dan408-: sorry, wrote too quickly. shortening 21	15:46
dan408-	might as well announce the shortening of 21 asap before it's too late	15:46
tflink	I suspect that it'll be a topic @ the fesco meeting on wednesday	15:46
dan408-	right	15:46
spstarr_work	fesco should wait until wayland is integrated in the ecosystems first	15:47
tflink	didn't stop us from getting caught a bit flatfooted for f20	15:47
dan408-	if we limit the number of "changes" it shouldnt be a big deal	15:47
tflink	s/us/me?	15:47
dan408-	is gnome 3.10 complete?	15:47
tflink	it was released	15:47
spstarr_work	i dont want there to be egg on face if Fedora 21 is cut before KDE has wayland support (assuming its close to that timeframe)	15:47
dan408-	that doesnt mean it's complete :P	15:47
tflink	I assume so :)	15:47
dan408-	so they are alraedy starting on 3.12 then?	15:47
dan408-	spstarr_work: is KDE also on a 6 month release cycle?	15:48
spstarr_work	dan408-: well, thought so, but wayland support might take longer(?)	15:48
dan408-	well	15:48
spstarr_work	KDE '5' is coming and i'd hate Fedora 21 to just miss it	15:49
adamw	spstarr_work: well, i'd sure count a KDE migration to wayland as a 'major change'	15:49
dan408-	i think talking about this here is pointless, because fesco is just going to decide what they're going to decide anyway	15:49
adamw	i'd feel pretty uncomfortable trying to do that in a four month cycle. but eh	15:49
dan408-	moreover, I also think basing our entire release schedule based on 1 DE's schedule is stupid. whether it's gnome or KDE, that's just my opinion	15:49
tflink	it sounds like it'd be wise to keep an eye on fesco tickets	15:49
adamw	dan408: the point is to determine what our concerns about the possibility are and relay those to fesco, and to think ahead about what we need to do ourselves to deal with such a schedule	15:50
tflink	and plan for a break in the blocker review meeting wednesday	15:50
dan408-	we'll get delayed again some day	15:50
spstarr_work	adamw: they have early support in KDE 4.11 for wayland but its not even tech preview level	15:50
dan408-	adamw: from a QA perspective, will we have enough time to do all the proper testing? I think yes.	15:50
dan408-	okay awkward silence..	15:52
adamw	tflink: point.	15:52
spstarr_work	adamw: I want to think Fedora should move to a new FESCO model	15:53
cmurf	so beta tc1 tomorrow?	15:53
adamw	#agreed we have concerns about a short release cycle especially combined with potential upcoming features like official wayland support for KDE and/or GNOME, we will raise those with fesco	15:53
adamw	spstarr_work: out of scope.	15:53
spstarr_work	representation from QA (1 person) and one from infrastructure etc...	15:53
spstarr_work	vs some people who are not privy to QA even	15:53
adamw	#info adamw suggested the possibility of doing a beta/final only schedule for a short release cycle, tflink was worried about dropping alpha	15:53
adamw	spstarr_work: still out of scope.	15:53
spstarr_work	adamw: we are open floor though :)	15:54
dan408-	adamw: when did the meeting go to 8am?	15:54
tflink	I'm not against dropping alpha if we are actually doing a small release	15:54
cmurf	floor isn't that big	15:54
adamw	dan408: it hasn't changed...	15:54
dan408-	hmm	15:54
adamw	spstarr_work: it's open to all QA topics, not general fedora proposals :P	15:54
adamw	tflink: fair enough	15:54
dan408-	oh	15:55
dan408-	one thing i'd like to raise that's QA related is regarding the spins	15:55
adamw	dan408: did the clocks change already in your region or something?	15:55
dan408-	no	15:55
dan408-	im just never awake at 8AM or I'm getting ready for work	15:55
adamw	what's up with the spins?	15:55
spstarr_work	adamw: fair enough	15:55
dan408-	ok regarding spins, a bunch of spins almost werent shipped for alpha	15:55
dan408-	there is a new signoff process for spins	15:55
adamw	yeah, it's been brought up before i think	15:55
dan408-	so it is paramount that this gets done before the alpha/beta/final composes	15:56
tflink	sure, by the sigs responsible for the spins	15:56
dan408-	LXDE, Scientific, MATE, and another one almost didnt get shipped	15:56
dan408-	tflink	15:56
dan408-	no QA is responsible for this	15:56
tflink	no, we're not	15:56
dan408-	we're not responsible for testing?	15:56
dan408-	alright then	15:56
tflink	the sigs are	15:57
tflink	for the signoff matrices	15:57
dan408-	i dont think that's been properly communicated out	15:57
satellit_e	+1	15:57
tflink	iirc, it was part of the matrix announcement	15:57
dan408-	whatever, i know now for my spin	15:58
kparal	dan408: just read once again nirik's announcement. it has been posted into every major list	15:58
* nirik is open to ideas for more communcation.		15:58
satellit_e	link should be on all testing pages https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/20/Spins	15:59
dan408-	hmm	15:59
nirik	if you can give me home addresses of spin owners I can send them all a flaming engraved candygram? ;)	15:59
adamw	dan408: yeah, the idea is that if you want your spin shipped, you get it tested	15:59
dan408-	adamw: it's not just me.	15:59
adamw	spin owners could come and ask us nicely to help test, of course, but the process doesn't require us to or give us ownership of it	15:59
adamw	dan408: 'you' in the general sense.	15:59
adamw	i.e. it's the spin owner's responsibility.	15:59
dan408-	nirik: pm	15:59
dan408-	nirik: lol	15:59
adamw	okay, looks like we're good	15:59
spstarr_work	adamw: I'd hope the spin owners know, I'd hate to know if KDE somehow got missed in a release, but I suspect they do very well know	15:59
* adamw sets quantum fuse		15:59
nirik	:)	16:00
tflink	spstarr_work: kde and desktop are the exceptions	16:00
adamw	we are responsible for KDE testing as it's a elease blocking desktop	16:00
spstarr_work	tflink: oh?	16:00
adamw	KDE and GNOME we're on the hook for	16:00
spstarr_work	:)	16:00
dan408-	i'll probably be propsoing 2 more spins for f21	16:00
* spstarr_work smile		16:00
spstarr_work	I do KDE side easier as I use KDE	16:00
dan408-	adamw: double standard ;p	16:01
dan408-	anyways we luckily dodged a bullet on that one	16:01
adamw	alrighty, thanks for coming folks	16:02
dan408-	thanks for hosting	16:03
adamw	yoooooooou're welcome	16:03
adamw	#endmeeting	16:03

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.12.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!