From Fedora Project Wiki

< I18N‎ | IBus‎ | Meetings

2009-05-27 0500 UTC on #fedora-i18n at Freenode

Agenda

Next meeting I18N/InputMethods/Meetings/2009-06-03

bug list

Summary

  • ibus f10 update still pending ibus-table-* builds (phuang and cchance will work on it)
  • discussion about evdev like handling of keycodes for working around IME modes that assume a specific layout (typically qwerty) and potential problem (phuang will investigate more)
  • new icon or new icon UI - whether we can have IME disabled icon rather than no info?
  • dev schedule pushed forward to next meeting
  • new im-chooser pushed to f11 dropping applet checkbox
  • suggestion to rename this meeting to "Fedora IM meeting"

Action Items

  • phuang and cchance to complete building ibus-table* for f10 update and push to testing

Log

juhp_ ah time for ibus meeting! May 27 15:08
juhp_ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/IBus/Meetings/2009-05-27 May 27 15:09
phuang_ hi May 27 15:12
juhp_ hi phuang_ May 27 15:12
dychen_ hi juhp May 27 15:12
Kaio1 juhp fixed candidate order prob May 27 15:13
---Kaio1 is now known as Kaio May 27 15:13
paragan hi May 27 15:13
Kaio hi May 27 15:13
juhp_ ping dychen_ May 27 15:15
dychen_ hi juhp May 27 15:15
dychen_ hi juhp_ May 27 15:15
tagoh3 hi May 27 15:15
juhp_ phuang_, Kaio: how is f10 update status btw? May 27 15:15
juhp_ hi tagoh3 May 27 15:15
Kaio juhp need to get ibus 1.1 into stable May 27 15:16
Kaio still waiting May 27 15:16
Kaio submitted request May 27 15:16
juhp_ Kaio: ? May 27 15:16
juhp_ which package? May 27 15:16
phuang_ The update problem of ibus-qt is not fixed. May 27 15:17
phuang_ Can I push it to stable with it? May 27 15:17
juhp_ phuang_: adding obsoletes? May 27 15:17
juhp_ with ? May 27 15:17
juhp_ phuang_: I think it is not good May 27 15:17
phuang_ It already has it. May 27 15:17
juhp_ phuang_: I forgot what is the update problem? May 27 15:18
phuang_ the ibus-1.1.x does not has ibus-qt anymore May 27 15:18
juhp_ yes May 27 15:19
juhp_ and it obsoletes it, right? May 27 15:19
phuang_ yeah May 27 15:19
juhp_ is what is left there? :) May 27 15:19
juhp_ so what is * May 27 15:19
phuang_ obsolete does not fix this problem May 27 15:19
tagoh3 what happens then? May 27 15:20
phuang_ some one said ibus need add provide for ibus-qt May 27 15:20
juhp_ hmm May 27 15:20
juhp_ I don't think it should May 27 15:20
tagoh3 I think if it provides that feature May 27 15:20
juhp_ since it doesn't May 27 15:20
juhp_ and which IMEs missing? May 27 15:20
tagoh3 actually it doesn't. so I don't think it's necessary May 27 15:21
juhp_ just ibus-table? May 27 15:21
tagoh3 phuang_: does someone say it still fails or just pointing out that provides thing? May 27 15:22
phuang_ Maybe we could submit a new updates again. it includes all ibus related packages. (include ibus-table-*) May 27 15:22
juhp_ yeah or edit May 27 15:22
phuang_ https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F10/FEDORA-2009-4031 May 27 15:22
juhp_ thanks May 27 15:22
phuang_ actually, in this update, ibus already has Obsoletes ibus-qt May 27 15:23
juhp_ right May 27 15:23
juhp_ Kaio: which is your ibus-table build? May 27 15:23
phuang_ 'Obsoletes: ibus-qt < 1.1.0' May 27 15:23
phuang_ Is it ok? May 27 15:23
juhp_ I think so May 27 15:23
Kaio juhp_: ? May 27 15:24
phuang_ So I don't why mschwendt will meet this problem May 27 15:24
tagoh3 I suppose mixing multiple issues up there May 27 15:24
phuang_ maybe May 27 15:25
tagoh3 who exactly is talking about ibus-qt? it looks like just talking about ibus-table-chinese though May 27 15:25
tagoh3 I may be missing something May 27 15:26
juhp_ tagoh3: ah yeah May 27 15:26
phuang_ oh May 27 15:26
phuang_ juhp_, I think you meet ibus-qt updating problem before. May 27 15:27
juhp_ phuang_: multilib? May 27 15:28
juhp_ ok I will test after then May 27 15:28
juhp_ Kaio: ?? May 27 15:28
juhp_ phuang_: so we're just waiting for ibus-table-* May 27 15:29
phuang_ I will re submit a new updates for all ibut packages May 27 15:29
phuang_ include ibus-table-* May 27 15:29
juhp_ phuang_: I think you can edit maybe and resubmit too, no? May 27 15:29
juhp_ are they built? May 27 15:29
juhp_ phuang_: cool May 27 15:29
Kaio juhp_: what should I do on this side? May 27 15:29
juhp_ let's put them all in testing and we can get more feedback May 27 15:29
juhp_ Kaio: what has been built? May 27 15:30
juhp_ or not May 27 15:30
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juhp_ Kaio: remember you already opened a ticket last week May 27 15:30
Kaio all couldnt be built because of Requires: May 27 15:30
juhp_ http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=102949 May 27 15:31
Kaio 'Requires: ibus >= 1.1.0' May 27 15:31
juhp_ Kaio: requires? May 27 15:31
Kaio BuildRequires May 27 15:31
juhp_ Kaio: when did you try? May 27 15:31
Kaio last week May 27 15:31
Kaio I'll do it again after meeting May 27 15:32
Kaio building new ibus-table on rawhide now May 27 15:32
Kaio might need to build a newer ibus-table that May 27 15:32
Kaio which fixed candidate order May 27 15:33
juhp_ Kaio: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=99671 May 27 15:33
juhp_ Kaio: heh May 27 15:33
juhp_ Kaio: cool May 27 15:33
phuang_ juhp, If ibus-table-* are almost done, I could push ibus-1.1.0 to stable May 27 15:33
juhp_ thanks May 27 15:33
Kaio just made a 20090527 tarball May 27 15:33
juhp_ and what about ibus-table-chinese? May 27 15:33
phuang_ juhp_, ok? May 27 15:33
juhp_ ibus-table obsoletes it? May 27 15:33
Kaio you want me to 'meta' it? May 27 15:33
juhp_ Kaio: well something has to get rid of it, right? May 27 15:34
phuang_ juhp, yeah. ibus-table, or ibus-table-* could add obsoletes or provides May 27 15:34
juhp_ phuang_: or do you want to take care of it? May 27 15:34
Kaio that i-b-chinese has zhengma, afaik? May 27 15:34
Kaio and wubi98? May 27 15:34
phuang_ what need take care of ? May 27 15:34
juhp_ Kaio, phuang_: you two please work it out - it should not take long May 27 15:34
Kaio k May 27 15:34
phuang_ ok May 27 15:35
juhp_ sooner than later would be good :) May 27 15:35
juhp_ thanks! May 27 15:35
Kaio new ibus-table on rawhide just done May 27 15:36
phuang_ I will remove ibus-table from the update. and let Kaio to submit alll ibus-table packages together. ? May 27 15:36
phuang_ ok? May 27 15:36
juhp_ hmm May 27 15:36
juhp_ I dunno May 27 15:36
juhp_ if we can do ibus-table quickly it would be better May 27 15:36
juhp_ phuang_: old ibus-table won't work right? May 27 15:37
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Kaio phuang_: I will get new ibus-table ready for f10 in 15 mins, but ibus-table-* will need to be done right after that May 27 15:37
phuang_ can not works with new ibus May 27 15:37
juhp_ Kaio: if you rebuild you will have to request override tagging again May 27 15:37
juhp_ right May 27 15:37
Kaio juhp :\ May 27 15:37
phuang_ Kaio, need ask releng to help you May 27 15:37
Kaio phuang_: okay May 27 15:37
juhp_ phuang_: current build was already tagged May 27 15:38
juhp_ ... May 27 15:38
juhp_ but needs obsoletes May 27 15:38
phuang_ juhp, yeah May 27 15:38
*Kaio looks for warren :P May 27 15:38
juhp_ Kaio: please test upgrade on f10 before requesting tagging May 27 15:38
Kaio juhp okay May 27 15:38
juhp_ thanks May 27 15:38
Kaio np May 27 15:38
juhp_ # xkb/qemu/rdesktop May 27 15:39
juhp_ phuang_: I noticed you looked at various keymap stuff recently May 27 15:39
juhp_ what did you find? May 27 15:40
phuang_ yeah May 27 15:40
phuang_ I have a new idea to handle xkb problem May 27 15:41
juhp_ aha May 27 15:41
phuang_ It is to let ibus to process scan code, instead of keysym May 27 15:41
phuang_ So ibus will convert scan code to keysym with different keyboard layout May 27 15:42
phuang_ like jp layout for anthy May 27 15:42
phuang_ en-us layout for pinyin, chewing, and etc May 27 15:42
tagoh3 phuang_: you mean ibus will has a conversion table instead of relying on X? May 27 15:42
phuang_ ime could specify the layout in description file (.xml) May 27 15:42
phuang_ yeah May 27 15:43
tagoh3 hmm May 27 15:43
phuang_ I found the new X server use evdev driver for inputting May 27 15:43
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tagoh3 sorry, what's the xkb problem again? May 27 15:44
phuang_ it reads events from /dev/input/* May 27 15:44
juhp_ ah right May 27 15:44
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phuang_ Old problem is May 27 15:44
phuang_ ibus uses keysym, ime process keysyms May 27 15:44
juhp_ tagoh3: it is for IME that depend on layout geometry May 27 15:44
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juhp_ tagoh3: eg if you want to input kana with non-qwerty layout May 27 15:45
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juhp_ or non-qwerty kbd rather May 27 15:45
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phuang_ if users use ge layout, some engines (like chewing or anthy) can not works well May 27 15:45
juhp_ right May 27 15:45
juhp_ phuang_: I think anthy is only affected for kana mode May 27 15:45
juhp_ not romaji May 27 15:46
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juhp_ so it is bit complex May 27 15:46
juhp_ it has to be modal May 27 15:46
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tagoh3 there should be various keyboard in the world. do you want to have some dozens of combinations among keyboards and languages? May 27 15:46
phuang_ I found Linux kernel input driver will get the same scan code from different keyboards. May 27 15:47
phuang_ But I am not sure. Need more test. May 27 15:47
tagoh3 you also need to take care of the bridge between ibus and X too May 27 15:47
phuang_ btw, can I get some different keyboards? May 27 15:47
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phuang_ bridge? May 27 15:47
dychen_ phuang_: conversion, tagoh3 means. May 27 15:48
tagoh3 you need to send the key event back to the applications May 27 15:48
phuang_ ibus almost do not need send key events back May 27 15:49
tagoh3 I thought the key code on X and from kernel is a bit different. May 27 15:49
phuang_ it just filters some events out, or ignore some key events May 27 15:49
---Kaio1 is now known as Kaio May 27 15:50
phuang_ yeah. X scan code - 8 == kernel scan code, (or may be -7, I forgot) May 27 15:50
phuang_ we could ref /usr/include/linux/input.h May 27 15:50
tagoh3 and thought kernel can't deal with some modifier keys May 27 15:51
phuang_ yeah May 27 15:51
phuang_ we keep the state in XKeyEvent May 27 15:51
phuang_ Just change keyval to scancode May 27 15:52
juhp_ aha May 27 15:52
tagoh3 what happens if one just taps or press a modifier key only? May 27 15:52
phuang_ a key event will be sent to ibus with current states May 27 15:53
tagoh3 in that case, no state changed but keyval should has one for the modifier key though May 27 15:53
phuang_ ? May 27 15:54
tagoh3 try xev with pressing Alt say. you don't see state = 0 with KeyPress and keycode and keysym has Alt_L or Alt_R. and state is changed with KeyRelease. May 27 15:55
tagoh3 s/don't/do/ May 27 15:55
juhp_ but guess evdev is already handling that? May 27 15:55
tagoh3 guess there may be an emmulation for the modifier keys. dunno. May 27 15:57
juhp_ aha May 27 15:57
phuang_ KeyRelease event, serial 30, synthetic NO, window 0x5a00001, May 27 15:57
phuang_ root 0xf6, subw 0x0, time 185962373, (546,97), root:(566,228), May 27 15:57
phuang_ state 0x8, keycode 64 (keysym 0xffe9, Alt_L), same_screen YES, May 27 15:57
phuang_ XLookupString gives 0 bytes: May 27 15:57
phuang_ XFilterEvent returns: False May 27 15:57
tagoh3 yes. May 27 15:58
phuang_ tagoh3, in current ibus, gtk im module will send Alt_L with state 0x8 May 27 15:58
juhp_ phuang_: so have you tried to test it a bit? May 27 15:58
tagoh3 I mean you can't detect the state change in KeyPress. May 27 15:58
phuang_ tagoh3, in the new design, it will send keycode 64 with state 0x8 May 27 15:58
phuang_ just use keycode replaces keysym May 27 15:59
tagoh3 and if that modifier key is something like X specific, how do you convert it between scancode and X keycode? May 27 15:59
phuang_ gtk im module still gets keycode and state from XKeyEvent. modifier is handled by X May 27 16:00
phuang_ or from GdkEventKey May 27 16:00
phuang_ guint16 hardware_keycode in GdkEventKey May 27 16:01
phuang_ We don't get events from /dev/input/* directly May 27 16:01
phuang_ In the new idea, we don't need XLookupKeysym anymore May 27 16:02
phuang_ it is called in gdk May 27 16:02
tagoh3 hm, I may need to see the whole picture of this idea. May 27 16:02
phuang_ tagoh3, ok. i will create a chart for it. May 27 16:03
tagoh3 ah, one concern - so in new design, ibus will ignore some setting with xmodmap say? May 27 16:03
phuang_ the modifiers are handled by X May 27 16:04
phuang_ ibus does not care about it May 27 16:04
tagoh3 it's not only for modfiers though May 27 16:04
phuang_ ? May 27 16:04
tagoh3 you can assign any symbols to any keycode with xmodmap May 27 16:05
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phuang_ I think it is for setting modifier keys May 27 16:06
tagoh3 it affects to the usual keymaps too May 27 16:07
juhp well I think xmodmap is just an (old) cli to current xkb May 27 16:07
phuang_ When ibus is enabled (by Ctrl+space), ibus will be responsible for converting scancode to keysym May 27 16:08
phuang_ when ibus is off, ibus will ignore all key events, clients will use xkb as before May 27 16:08
phuang_ xmodmap just effects xkb configure May 27 16:09
juhp phuang_: maybe only need to do it for those IME/modes that need it May 27 16:09
phuang_ So it only effect when ibus is off May 27 16:09
tagoh3 ignore? how does ibus detect if one press the hot key then? May 27 16:09
juhp phuang_: on? May 27 16:09
phuang_ tagoh3, It is one exception May 27 16:10
tagoh3 ? May 27 16:10
phuang_ I mean when ibus is off, ibus could process keysym from clients not keycode May 27 16:11
phuang_ or May 27 16:11
phuang_ when ibus is off, ibus use default keyboard layout to convert keycode to keysym May 27 16:11
phuang_ like we use en-us as default layout May 27 16:11
phuang_ or make it configurable May 27 16:11
phuang_ Or Like windows, May 27 16:12
tagoh3 for instance, one may wants to set Super_R to the hot key with pc101 which doesn't really have Super_R. so one needs to modify keymap with xmodmap. if ibus doesn't care of that change, how does ibus works with it? May 27 16:12
phuang_ users could add some keyboards May 27 16:12
phuang_ ibus uses the active keyboard's layout for converting May 27 16:13
phuang_ tagoh3, It is not a normal case May 27 16:13
tagoh3 this isn't a layout issue but mapping issue though. and my understanding is ibus will have that mapping, no? May 27 16:13
phuang_ tagoh3, we will suggest use different one May 27 16:13
phuang_ yeah. he could modify keymap files in ibus May 27 16:14
phuang_ for map scancode to different keysym May 27 16:14
phuang_ s/for/to/ May 27 16:14
phuang_ if he wants customize the default keyboard layouts. May 27 16:15
tagoh3 phuang_: right, this isn't a normal case. but non CJK people relies on xkb really. and since ibus needs to deal with it to support the configurable hot keys, it affects regardless of ibus is on or off. May 27 16:15
tagoh3 as long as one installs ibus May 27 16:15
phuang_ http://github.com/phuang/ibus/tree/59a36db15d09f4ec948e9d9f87228a21f41ef3fa/data/keymaps May 27 16:16
phuang_ there are some keyboard layouts May 27 16:16
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phuang_ he could modify them May 27 16:17
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phuang_ or we could allow user override them in $HOME folder May 27 16:17
tagoh3 I'm afraid I think having own keyboard layout isn't acceptable for non-CJK users. why don't you get involved and improve XKB or xklavier or so? May 27 16:18
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phuang_ why non-CJK users will concern about it? May 27 16:19
tagoh3 changes required for usual keyboard layout and ibus keyboard layout is annoying. and easily confused and hard to keep consistency if one doesn't pay more attentions there. May 27 16:20
juhp I understand tagoh3's concerns and certainly scim didn't get this right or at least didn't solve this problem May 27 16:21
tagoh3 for interface-wise, it doesn't make any difference what scim does. which caused a lot of confusion May 27 16:22
juhp but we definitely need some mechanism for IMEs that assume a certain layout May 27 16:22
juhp so I mean we need to think this through very carefully May 27 16:22
juhp there must be a right way to do it May 27 16:23
phuang_ I really want to know how windows handle it May 27 16:23
phuang_ juhp, when can i get a ja or ko keyboard? May 27 16:24
juhp phuang_: you didn't borrow from QE? May 27 16:24
phuang_ juhp, I ask QE, they don't know ? May 27 16:24
juhp heh May 27 16:24
juhp then please follow up to the email ;) May 27 16:24
phuang_ yeah. They has a ja keyboard, but it is someone's notebook's keyboard May 27 16:25
juhp ah lol May 27 16:25
juhp hmm May 27 16:25
juhp I assumed from llim_ that there were kbds in your office May 27 16:25
juhp anyway let's follow up on that May 27 16:26
phuang_ thanks May 27 16:26
juhp phuang_: no kr ? May 27 16:26
phuang_ no May 27 16:26
juhp hmm May 27 16:26
juhp running late May 27 16:29
juhp # icon proposal May 27 16:29
juhp how about the icon proposal? May 27 16:29
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juhp I am still thinking though I would like to use "text" icons for ibus applet May 27 16:30
tagoh3 how about asking artTeam in Fedora? May 27 16:31
juhp suppose it could even be dynamic svg or something May 27 16:31
juhp tagoh3: well we did through bz May 27 16:31
tagoh3 aha May 27 16:31
tagoh3 what did they say? May 27 16:31
juhp I was circumventing that since they only posted designs internally on a wiki... May 27 16:32
juhp guess just for convenience more than secrecy... May 27 16:32
juhp tagoh3: the bug is linked in the agenda... May 27 16:32
juhp the designs are ok but not perfect IMHO May 27 16:33
tagoh3 oops, sorry May 27 16:33
juhp np May 27 16:33
juhp I should have pasted it here May 27 16:33
juhp forgot myself ;) May 27 16:33
juhp phuang_: what do you feel about modifying the icon UI? May 27 16:34
juhp phuang_: I think it would be nice to know the current IME when ibus is off anyway May 27 16:34
juhp I don't like the current scim UI May 27 16:34
juhp too much May 27 16:35
juhp that is in ibus I mean May 27 16:35
juhp if/when I have time meaning to hack a bit on it... May 27 16:35
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juhp hmm dunno if we lost phuang_ May 27 16:35
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phuang_ I think icon for ibus is ok. but for ime, the text in icons is too small May 27 16:36
Kaio1 phuang_: agree May 27 16:36
juhp phuang_: that was not my question :) May 27 16:36
juhp UI :) May 27 16:36
*Kaio1 thinks the icons themselves even too small May 27 16:36
phuang_ icon UI? May 27 16:36
juhp well size is not the issue... May 27 16:37
juhp phuang_: <juhp> I am still thinking though I would like to use "text" icons for ibus applet May 27 16:37
juhp phuang_: and what about off state? May 27 16:37
phuang_ what's text icons May 27 16:37
juhp I don't think we need an off icon at all May 27 16:37
phuang_ for off state, I need do some investigation May 27 16:37
juhp phuang_: or just red cross on top for off? May 27 16:38
phuang_ Actually, windows does not do it May 27 16:38
juhp there lots of possibilities May 27 16:38
juhp hmm May 27 16:38
juhp well my vote goes for anything but off-icon ;) May 27 16:38
phuang_ Currently, when ibus is off, the input context does not have a related ime May 27 16:38
juhp we don't have to copy windows May 27 16:38
juhp phuang_: but hotkey does May 27 16:39
phuang_ the ime instance will be created, when the user press Ctrl+Space in first time May 27 16:39
phuang_ yeah May 27 16:39
juhp hmm May 27 16:39
juhp I see May 27 16:39
juhp hmmm May 27 16:39
juhp so no reliable way to know you mean? May 27 16:39
juhp phuang_: it can't be cached say? May 27 16:40
phuang_ need some investigation, May 27 16:40
juhp ok May 27 16:40
phuang_ btw the default ime will be changed. and some time, ibus could have no imes May 27 16:41
juhp well I agree UI would be a bit strange if it shows the wrong IME too May 27 16:41
juhp yeah May 27 16:41
juhp so maybe use a dummy (off) icon when not sure perhaps May 27 16:41
juhp dunno if it is a limitation of Linux IM May 27 16:42
juhp or X rather May 27 16:42
phuang_ I dunno :) May 27 16:42
juhp ok May 27 16:42
juhp anyway I wanted to ask about it... :) May 27 16:43
juhp let's move the last agenda item to next week since we are well over time May 27 16:43
phuang_ ok May 27 16:44
juhp phuang_: f11 ibus looking ok currently? May 27 16:44
phuang_ juhp, yeah :) May 27 16:44
juhp also we should do a bug list review soon since it has grown a bit after the test day May 27 16:44
juhp cool May 27 16:44
juhp anyone have anything else? May 27 16:44
tagoh3 one thing from me.. May 27 16:45
tagoh3 just FYI - finally pushed new im-chooser for devel and F-11 without the status icon checkbox. sorry for inconvenience. May 27 16:45
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tagoh3 for topic relates to IM, but anyway. May 27 16:47
juhp tagoh3: yeah saw that - looks good on my box :) thanks May 27 16:48
juhp we could also name this meeting "Fedora IM meeting" May 27 16:49
phuang_ right May 27 16:49
tagoh3 sounds good :) May 27 16:49
juhp okay May 27 16:50
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juhp okay let's close the meeting then May 27 16:54
juhp thanks very much everyone for participating May 27 16:54
phuang_ thanks May 27 16:54
Kaio1 thx May 27 16:55

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