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jsmith #startmeeting Fedora Board Meeting 18:00
zodbot Meeting started Fri Jul 16 18:00:54 2010 UTC. The chair is jsmith. Information about MeetBot at 18:00
zodbot Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00
jsmith #meetingname Fedora Board 18:01
zodbot The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_board' 18:01
jsmith #chair stickster 18:01
zodbot Current chairs: jsmith stickster 18:01
rdieter here 18:01
jsmith Welcome, all! 18:01
* spot is here 18:01
* jds2001 here 18:01
* stickster 18:01
* jsmith is here from FUDCon Santiago 18:01
* Orv lurks 18:01
* mizmo (Máirín Duffy) here 18:02
smooge_afk here 18:02
smooge_afk sorry 18:02
jsmith As announced, this is going to be an open meeting... We'll open with questions and answers, and see how things go for the first 40 minutes or so 18:02
jsmith From there, we'll either continue with Q&A for the remaining time, or move on to other board business 18:03
jsmith Sound fair? 18:03
* stickster notes mdomsch and walters are both unavailable today since they're traveling or off grid 18:03
jsmith #topic Questions and Answers (at large) 18:04
jds2001 dont be bashful! :) 18:04
jsmith While waiting for questions, let me say that I'm thankful to everyone who helps make Fedora what it is 18:04
jsmith There's plenty of work ahead, but I'm very pleased with what I've seen of Fedora over the past few yaers 18:05
jds2001 1 18:05
jsmith s/yaers/years/ 18:05
stickster jsmith: Do you want us to lob a couple questions, since no one has chimed in yet? 18:06
smooge hmmm most of the people I know who are into asking questions are not here today 18:06
brunowolff Does the board have initial impressions of the anthropolgy report? 18:06
jds2001 I think it was a worthwhile experience 18:06
* meGenius wants to know, what kind of ACCEPTABLE questions we can ask... 18:07
jds2001 not everyone may have participated in it 18:07
jds2001 meGenius: whatever you'd like :) 18:07
jsmith meGenius: Fail early, fail often :-) 18:07
jds2001 the whole point of this is to be an open forum :) 18:07
dgilmore jsmith: what do you see as the biggest challange in your starting weeks/months? 18:07
jsmith brunowolff: I think it was worthwhile... I have a bit of a background in market research, and will be interested to dive into it deeper when I have a chance 18:08
mizmo I think it points out that while we're awesome at collaborating, we need to improve our on-boarding processes! ~80% of our contributors have been here 2 years or longer - we need new blood and we need that knowledge in oldtimer folks' heads to be shared with new folks 18:08
jsmith brunowolff: But my initial impressions are that there's a lot of data there we can use to improve the Fedora experience (both from the distro and community side) 18:08
jsmith dgilmore: Well -- where do I begin? 18:08
EvilBob I'm in to asking questions but quite busy today 18:08
stickster brunowolff: In answer to your question, my impression was that it shows that people get involved in Fedora for many different reasons. 18:08
jds2001 mizmo: +1. I think that's a problem in any organization though 18:08
jsmith dgilmore: We need to continue to push Fedora development, and to make the Fedora community more inclusive 18:09
jds2001 mizmo: there's plenty of tribal knowledge, be that in Fedora or anywhere elsd. 18:09
* ctyler realizes the time, sorry I'm late 18:09
jsmith dgilmore: I'm reminded this week at FUDCon at the barriers to entry that are there, not because we're trying to be exclusive, but because of language and cultural differences for example 18:09
mizmo i think though, it's hard to feel comfortable enough to ask until you get your feet wet, it's that initial experience of getting your feet wet we need to make easier. once someone has accomplished their first project and have gotten positive feedback on it, i think they feel more comfortable getting involved in other projects 18:10
mizmo easier to dig the tribal knowledge out :) 18:10
jsmith dgilmore: My biggest challenge in the beginning is to find ways to get buy-in from all the parties involved so that we can push with a concerted effort 18:10
jsmith dgilmore: I tend to be a bit scatterbrained, but I don't want a scatterbrained approach to Fedora improvement 18:10
jsmith dgilmore: I'd rather make it a collaborative effort 18:10
Devilment There was a discussion last weekend in #fedora-uk about why isn't there a Fedora LTS. RHEL/CentOS was mentioned as filling this role and how there used to be Fedora Legacy, which ended up folding due to lack of volunteers, IIRC. There is nothing to prevent a third party from providing LTS to a Fedora release, but would we ever see anything official again? 18:11
dgilmore jsmith: :) excellente 18:11
smooge Devilment, I can speak to some of that 18:11
jsmith mizmo: I tend to agree... but we need to focus on the user experience as well, before we can help them through the contribute, participate, lead cycle 18:11
smooge Devilment, LTS is a very very 'expensive' operation and volunteers are not usually wanting to do that. 18:12
jsmith Devilment: I don't have any immediate plans for a Fedora LTS... the rapid development cycle and community-driven nature of Fedora doesn't really lend itself to long-term updates 18:12
jds2001 Devilment: we have infrastructure challenges to face with that. 18:12
jsmith Devilment: If I had a full-time staff and ten times the infrastructure, I'd be happy to explore it from the community standpoint 18:12
jds2001 in addition to everything that has been said :) 18:12
rdieter lts is a noble goal, and seems to have a not-insignificant amount of popularity among users, but apparently not much support among anyone able/willing to do the work to make it happen (a *lot* of work). 18:13
mizmo Devilment, do you think there's more community interest in maintaining something like that now compared to the old long term support program we had that died due to lack of interest? 18:13
smooge Devilment, it is quite open for other people to do long term support on things which is what we were looking for in Legacy. However many of the people looking to do it found that they didn't have the resources to expend 18:13
VisBits <3 fedora. 18:13
jsmith VisBits: Thanks! I do too! 18:13
sijis what do you consider LTS? don't we already go back 2 releases? 18:13
VisBits lol 18:13
smooge Thus an LTS is something that would probably fall onto the sponsoring company (eg Red Hat) to put the resources into it.. to make it successful 18:14
* stickster notes that there was a group of community members who voiced some interest again last year, but I haven't seen the results of that process. 18:14
* jds2001 thinks that died. 18:14
jsmith sijis: LTS typically means multiple years of supported updates -- three, five, and seven are common numbers 18:14
smooge sijis, Usually the people I know who are looking for LTS is looking or 3-5 years 18:14
jds2001 I was doing SIG status stuff for FES, and it looked dead to me. 18:14
VisBits Who uses fedora that needs support for old versions though? Isn't that rhels job? 18:14
smooge s/or/for 18:14
meGenius are there any plans to change the cycle of fedora releasing?? 18:15
mizmo who wants to use a 5-year-old desktop though? 18:15
mizmo i could see 2 years.... maybe 18:15
VisBits rhel6 will be pretty current 18:15
Devilment I'm happy with the status quo of ~13 months 18:15
jds2001 meGenius: again, rapid innovation happens in Fedora 18:15
rdieter meGenius: no. 18:15
VisBits Devilment, same. 18:15
jds2001 meGenius: that doesn't lend itself to longer release cycles 18:15
jsmith meGenius: I don't think we need any major changes to the develoment cycle. We may adjust from time to time to make it seven months (or possibly eight) should the need arise, but I don't see us moving to a much slower release cycle 18:15
stickster The stress always gets more visible as a previous RHEL or CentOS release ages. I would imagine that when RHEL 6 is released, with many of the desktop features that people have seen mature in new Fedora releases, the pressure for LTS will drop precipitously. 18:16
smooge Most commercial places I have worked for do not want desktops to change for 3 years. Thats the general life period that it takes to get training together, support structures in place and initial investment in those things paid off 18:16
Devilment I thought I'd raise the question so I can feed back to the person who was arguing for Fedora LTS 18:16
jsmith meGenius: It's very hard to continue to push innovation with a slower release cycle 18:16
jsmith Devilment: Thank you! We're glad you asked! 18:16
VisBits i like this jsmith guy :) 18:16
VisBits BH-Alex, LTS yes or no? 18:16
BH-Alex No, we have RHEL and CentOS for that 18:17
VisBits stickster> The stress always gets more visible as a previous RHEL or CentOS release ages. I would imagine that when RHEL 6 is released, with many of the desktop features that people have seen mature in new Fedora releases, the pressure for LTS will drop precipitously. 18:17
VisBits well said 18:17
meGenius jsmith: most of the BIG innovations are happening from year to year, that's it 2 versions 18:17
sijis a couple of months ago, there was an effort to meet with different SIG groups. honestly, i haven't kept up with it has there been other ones besides web and design? if not, is this expected to continue going forward? 18:18
jsmith meGenius: In times past, that was the case... if you've paid attention to F12, F13, and the feature list for F14, I think we're changing that 18:18
EvilBob I have seen no reason to justify the slowing of Fedora releases personally 18:18
jsmith meGenius: I'm going to continue to push for *continual* improvement 18:18
stickster sijis: That's a good question for jsmith -- but just to give a bit of background, the Board has held numerous meetings with different SIGs over the past few months. It's up to the current Board whether they want to continue that practice 18:18
BH-Alex I have a small question: wouldn't LTS defeat the point of thr new unfrozen rawhide and increase load on Fedora devs, and reduce similarity to upstream with backports? 18:19
jds2001 BH-Alex: yes, very much so. 18:19
smooge Point of Order please. Could people when asking questions puit a " QUESTION" at the front... its a little hard for me to parse out who is asking questions to the board and who is not 18:19
stickster sijis: But I would encourage it, because it helps when the Board is aware of challenges of different Fedora teams, and participates directly in resolving them. 18:19
stickster 1 smooge 18:19
smooge oops that wasn't a point of order 18:19
EvilBob By nature Fedora is a stress filled adventure, constant upgrades, and many like it that way I know I do. It's fun to see what we can break next. 18:19
caillon sijis, I enjoyed them, fwiw. I'd be in favor of continuing to do so, actually. 18:20
jsmith sijis: I want to continue to work with the SIGs, but as a board we need to decide the best way to interact with them. My general rule of thumb is "give them the tools they need, give them some mentorship, and then get out of the way" 18:20
meGenius have you even thought about canceling the version system, i mean, pushing updates directly 18:20
jsmith sijis: Obviously each SIG is different, and will require a customized response 18:20
jsmith meGenius: It's been discussed, but I'm personally not a fan of "rolling releases" 18:20
jds2001 meGenius: there needs to be some point where we produce installable media 18:20
VisBits lets all use ubuntu 18:20
rdieter meGenius: that's largely what rawhide *is* 18:20
jsmith rdieter: Exactly. 18:20
EvilBob If you want a rolling release there is arch linux available 18:21
sijis jsmith: sure. i thought it was beneficial to hear what other groups are doing and what challenges/assistance they may need 18:21
mizmo VisBits, um "awesome" suggestion 18:21
jds2001 meGenius: and there are some changes that are major enough to not do to a live system 18:21
jsmith sijis: True. I'll make a note of that 18:21
VisBits mizmo, lol i was kidding, i dont like ubuntu at all 18:21
jds2001 LVM1->LVM2 is a good example. 18:21
EvilBob Fedora does not have to be for everyone. 18:21
mizmo VisBits, phew 18:21
mizmo :) 18:21
meGenius EvilBob: nah! 18:21
VisBits :) 18:21
jsmith EvilBob: I agree... we can't be *everything* for *everybody*, or what we end up with is just average (or worse the lowest common denominator). That being said, I think we can be *most* everything for *most* everybody. 18:22
EvilBob Just because someone else is "doing X and Y" does not mean Fedora should 18:22
jsmith We *can* and *should* be a leading Linux distribution, which gives users and devs the tools they want and need 18:22
meGenius jsmith: the spins can! 18:22
BH-Alex As a developer (primarily C++, distributed computing), I have to use RHEL platforms in a supercomputing environment. While that's great, I love the freshness of Fedora, which is why I run it on all of my machines. Having an LTS support appears to me, as a user, to contradict the Fedora mission. 18:22
jsmith (if not *the* distro, obviously) 18:22
VisBits jsmith, exactly, i love fedora for being modern 18:22
VisBits thats why i use it 18:23
EvilBob We do things just a little different, and IMO better. Not perfect but better. 18:23
stickster jsmith: And I would go further to say, leading in that space means we have the opportunity to solve problems that are common to "most everybody." 18:23
jsmith meGenius: Very good point -- Spins are a creative outlet for those who want a slightly different experience 18:23
VisBits Linux t61 #1 SMP 18:23
VisBits <3 18:23
jsmith EvilBob: We try not to let "perfect" get in the way of "better" 18:23
brunowolff Note that the Spins SIG was (and to some extent still is) very close to totally failing. 18:23
jds2001 brunowolff: what can we do to support that? 18:24
* jds2001 would like to be more involved there if not for a lack of time :/ 18:24
VisBits can we get native ZFS support in fedora :)? 18:24
jsmith brunowolff: The board is happy to accept suggestions on concrete ways the board can help improve that 18:24
EvilBob jds2001: +1 18:24
jds2001 VisBits: no 18:24
VisBits :( 18:24
brunowolff We need to get spin owners more involved. How to do that is an open question. 18:24
dgilmore VisBits: when licensing is sorted im sure it will come 18:24
jds2001 VisBits: licensing concerns :( 18:24
jsmith VisBits: We work from upstream kernels... get it pushed upstream, and we'll have it 18:24
VisBits whats the offending company? 18:24
jds2001 dgilmore: i wouldnt hold my breath with current events. 18:25
jds2001 VisBits: sun/oracle 18:25
BH-Alex What about spins? I've tried to use revisor to make my own, but it's been broken since Fedora 10, despite submitting bug reports. What does the Spins SIG need, I might have somet ime. 18:25
Devilment doesn't btrfs overlap with ZFS's functionality? 18:25
VisBits jds2001, surprise surprise.. 18:25
ctyler actually, patents as much as licenses in the ZFS case 18:25
brunowolff I have a plan to better document roles to set expectations for spin owners and to hopefully make it easier to volunteer for the special roles of 18:25
brunowolff lead and wrangler. 18:25
EvilBob jds2001: I am hoping once I get settled in to my new place I will be able to be involved more in a lot of areas. 18:25
jsmith brunowolff: Sounds great 18:25
ctyler 18:26
jds2001 EvilBob: yeah, $DAYJOB takes a ton of time for me, and I can't really hack on Fedora there unfortunately :( 18:26
brunowolff It will be OK for F14 unless something happens to me, but I would prefer to be working more in other areas. 18:26
* smooge hates to say this but is lost on what questions are currently open before the board 18:26
VisBits BH-Alex, good point 18:26
EvilBob smooge: Yup 18:26
mizmo there's a ZFS question that just wrapped up 18:26
* stickster would think the Board should devote some time to thinking about the health and well-being of the Spins SIG. When I hear brunowolff say he wants spin owners to be "more involved" it gives me some concern. 18:26
mizmo and righ tnow we seem to be talking about helping Spins 18:26
jsmith #info Please put the word QUESTION in front of any new questions to help us know when new questions have been asked 18:27
VisBits QUESTION why is the sky blue. 18:27
EvilBob smooge: this is less than fully functional, we need the middle of the road secretary method from days of old IMO 18:27
brunowolff I mostly wanted to point out people shouldn't be proposing grand things for spins, when the whole Spins SIG might disappear. 18:27
jds2001 stickster: +1, I've been watching from the sidelines and been concerned. 18:27
jsmith VisBits: Chemistry 18:27
BH-Alex QUESTION what is wrong with the Spins SIG currently? 18:28
jds2001 BH-Alex: lack of engagement, for want of a better term. 18:28
VisBits jsmith, its actually physics 18:28
EvilBob BH-Alex: From what I hear "Not enough Indians". lots of grand ideas and little in the way of getting it done. 18:28
BH-Alex So would the Spins SIG benefit from a trimmed down mission, short-term? 18:29
meGenius jds2001: i guess the spins are released on the basis of the self requirements not the public ones 18:29
stickster jds2001: brunowolff: Spin owners provide an "official" Fedora release that's been approved by the Board. I think it's important that the results are successfully passing through a process that ensures the results work well. 18:29
smooge Well I would like to say that A) We need to talk with them before we can say that and B) I would need to know who the members are 18:30
jds2001 meGenius: not sure i parsed that. 18:30
dgilmore QUESTION jsmith: How can i as a regular fedora contributor feel like i can take ownership of some task or segement of fedora. How are we going to make sure that contributors feel enabled? 18:30
EvilBob stickster: How are we promoting the spins that are new and innovative along with the other spins that have been approved? 18:30
brunowolff I talked to releng today and there will be a testing requirement for the GA release. 18:30
jsmith dgilmore: First of all, they need to know what Fedora is and what it represents 18:31
meGenius jds2001: someone may release a spin for - let's say - gaming. so he will add a number of packages for the game he plays not what people plays 18:31
EvilBob One way as we all know to increase contributor base is to increase user base 18:31
jsmith dgilmore: Second, they need to have a support network -- people they can ask questions to, preferably in their locality and language 18:31
stickster EvilBob: In part through set-aside areas in our talking points and other marketing materials. 18:31
jds2001 meGenius: good point. How do we fix that? 18:31
jsmith dgilmore: Third, they need to feel their involvement is welcome and valued 18:31
meGenius jds2001: the spin-makers should listen to people, there should be wishlist 18:32
BH-Alex QUESTION: Aren't Spins just built from kickstart files? Why does it appear that a lot of resources are required to successfully produce a spin? From running cobbler and livecd-creator I've found kickstart to be wonderful and easy. 18:32
jsmith dgilmore: Fourth, we need to make it clearer both how they can contribute/participate/lead, and what the steps are to do so 18:32
* EvilBob is AFK again 18:32
dgilmore jsmith: great. now to make sure that we take the steps that way 18:32
* mmcgrath notes just yesterday it took 3 of us over an hour or two to track down a spin with a bad checksum. 18:33
jds2001 BH-Alex: but putting it all together is hard. 18:33
brunowolff QA is busy enough with the main spins (Desktop and KDE) that they can't test the other spins. The Spins SIG needs to do that. 18:33
Devilment QUESTION: Not everyone is a coder, so may feel they cannot contribute back to the Fedora Project. How can we get non-coders more involved? 18:33
jsmith dgilmore: Well, obviously we need to take a step back and try to see things from the perspective of a new user/contributor 18:33
jds2001 BH-Alex: spinning the bits is trivial 18:33
jds2001 Devilment: I don't know C to save my life :) 18:33
jsmith dgilmore: Many of us have been using Fedora for so long that we don't remember (or want to remember) what it was like to get started 18:34
BH-Alex jds2001: so if I understand it correctly, it's a manpower issue combined with a what-the-public-wants issue? 18:34
jsmith dgilmore: We've forgotten what it's like to not know what to do or how to do it 18:34
rdieter Devilment: there's plenty on not involving coding 18:34
dgilmore Devilment: there is so much of fedora not at all involved with code we need to make sure that those sections are visable to all 18:34
meGenius Devilment: i guess reporting bugs, suggesting feature .. etc.. 18:34
stickster Devilment: Although our 'join' page is in need of some work, we do clearly indicate there's plenty of ways to be involved that are non-code related 18:34
brunowolff The ks files need review. For example Dan Walsh wants to make a kiosk spin but currently is doing it in what we suspect is a bad way. 18:34
mizmo Devilment, join the design team :) We post bounties specifically for brand-new contributors 18:34
jsmith Design, docs, marketing 18:34
mizmo Devilment, no coding required 18:34
mizmo 18:34
brunowolff But we don't have someone that can work with him to fix things up. 18:34
caillon brunowolff, arguably, they should be doing that anyway. different spins look to provide different experiences. something which works as expected on one spin might be considered a bug in another spin. 18:34
jsmith Contributor doesn't always mean coder 18:34
stickster Devilment: Bug reports, documentation, translation, design, ... 18:34
ctyler there's getting started as a user (straightforward) and getting started as a contributor (less straightforward) 18:34
dgilmore jsmith: indeed. i get slapped in the face by that at times to remind me 18:34
jsmith One thing I really want to push is some improvements to the website 18:35
stickster jsmith: In fact, we happen to be approaching the third phase of a website redesign 18:35
smooge Devilment, well there are a lot of places for non-coders (I am one of those). Design, QA, Ambassadors, proof-reading the Wiki.. there are lots of areas. However most of them are technical based versus social 18:35
jsmith (More details to come... but in general, we need to do a better job of telling the Fedora story and how it meshes with the open source way) 18:35
jds2001 jsmith: that's obviously on the docket :) 18:35
meGenius jsmith: in fact, i want to see some imrpvments on the forums 18:35
jds2001 meGenius: unfortunately, the forums are not run by fedora 18:36
jds2001 but they have a trademark license 18:36
stickster Phase one (F12) was the spins.fp.o site; phase two (F13) was the get-fedora* pages; phase three (F14) is the main www.fp.o page 18:36
meGenius jds2001: so, you can create your owns, right?? 18:36
Devilment could this stuff be mentioned on the anacoder installer screen? something like, "You don't have to be a programmer to contribute back to Fedora. See <url> for details." 18:36
jds2001 meGenius: you can, there are trademark guidelines to follow. 18:37
Devilment s/anacoder/anadconda 18:37
BH-Alex QUESTION what would be the end-result of Spins SIG were disbanded? From looking at downloads are low 18:37
Devilment argh 18:37
stickster meGenius: Yes, with some limitations. This is a question best asked on the advisory-board list: 18:37
stickster meGenius: Also check out 18:37
meGenius in fact, the forums with the current situation are not that helpful 18:38
mizmo BH-Alex, downloads are low because the counter is reset every release 18:38
ctyler BH-Alex: I don't think downloads show the full picture; some spins are duplicated heavily by those involved with them 18:38
mizmo BH-Alex, those numbers don't reflect the F12 downloads which were quite large before we reset the counter 18:38
smooge BH-Alex, probably some peeved off people who have worked very hard on it. 18:38
rdieter meGenius: how so ? 18:38
sijis the spins stats are just torrent downloads too, not direct download ones 18:38
meGenius rdieter: a lot of times, duplicated threads are opened, for example 18:39
jds2001 btw, some stats are at Statistics 18:39
stickster meGenius: That sounds very similar to just about all forums I've seen. 18:39
smooge meGenius, Forums take quite a bit of herding for that to not have that problem. 18:39
rdieter meGenius: that happens everywhere, irc, mailing lists, forums. 18:40
dgilmore meGenius: hard to control 18:40
meGenius stickster: exactly! & that's why i guessed applying some changes to it 18:40
stickster smooge: +1. meGenius: Have you considered talking to the forum admins and offering some help there directly? 18:40
smooge meGenius, I have found it can become a full time job for 2-3 people per 'channel' on it 18:40
BH-Alex It seems to me like Spins itself is problematic because of the difficulty to assemble the 'experience' -- wouldn't it be beneficial to have the Base Fedora install then have "profiles" (a list of packages provided by the spin-author) that can be made available? 18:41
* jsmith notes that we're at 40 minutse past the hour 18:41
meGenius smooge: i want to see a helpful problems solving directory 18:41
jsmith Are there many more questions, or shall we move on to other board business? 18:41
ctyler BH-Alex: part of the point of spins is that you can run them live, and can install them directly 18:42
BH-Alex ctyler: is that true of all spins? 18:42
meGenius a user can refers to it, before asking any questions in the forums or the irc channels 18:42
* jsmith can't type when his brain is in "Spanish" mode 18:42
jds2001 BH-Alex: yeah, we havent done installable spins yet 18:42
stickster jsmith: Judging by the way the channel has moved today (robust conversation), it may be difficult to get through a Board agenda here. 18:42
brunowolff For the Spins SIG spins, they are all live. 18:42
jds2001 i.e. just anaconda, no liveinst 18:42
jsmith stickster: I'm thinking the same 18:43
ctyler BH-Alex: I believe so. I think we need to re-examine the spin technology in the light of the "sudden overlay failure" issue (when run from USB, affecting SoaS particularly) as well as fedora-embedded/arm/mips/mini needs. 18:43
jsmith #agreed Let's continue the Q&A for the remaining time, and cover other board business at next board meeting 18:44
BH-Alex jds2001: sorry, I thought they were installable only, my mistake (I don't use Spins); Then couldn't it be [relatively] easy to make additional images to drop in alongside the base fedora image to make it live, making it easy to compose spins out of composite components? That would be useful with LiveUSB 18:44
jds2001 BH-Alex: are yyou talking spin-kickstarts? 18:44
ctyler BH-Alex: I think there's confusion here, all the spins are live. 18:45
dgilmore this sounds like something more technical and less board related 18:45
jsmith I've asked the board members to come prepared with some questions for me as well. 18:45
BH-Alex jds2001: no, I am proposing extending the current system of mounting a single fedora-image as root to include multiple images (sort of like overlay) to composite spins, making it easier to make a Spin, thereby allowing more customization 18:45
jsmith Board members, feel free to hit me with your questions :-) 18:45
smooge dgilmore, I agree. We aren't going to micromanage here. 18:46
jds2001 jsmith: what are you going to do to give us all ponies? 18:46
stickster BH-Alex: ctyler: jds2001: The idea is worth discussing. Why don't we take the idea to the spins@ list for more discussions. 18:46
* stickster just totally wrote a redundantly redundant sentence there, sorry. 18:46
brunowolff Making custom spins is easy. I think that's a bit away from Spins SIG though. 18:46
mizmo jsmith, i have a question that's very... different than the current ones and perhaps stupid 18:46
jsmith jds2001: Great question.... I see Fedora (and operating systems in general) like ponies... You don't just buy a pony and forget about it. You have to feed it, clean up after it, and take care of it 18:47
mizmo jsmith, is there real value in the number of t-shirts we produce? could we be doing something to provide more value for the $? 18:47
dgilmore jds2001: everyone but cards fans 18:47
jsmith jds2001: I hope that when my tenure is done, we can look back at all the ponies we've helped raise :-p 18:47
jds2001 :) 18:47
mizmo jsmith, i'm kind of an eco hippie and i feel really bad about the number of shirts, but maybe it's because i have so many. maybe most people dont 18:47
* mizmo owns up to the bizarroness of the question 18:48
jsmith mizmo: I'm open to suggestions. I think the t-shirts fill two important purposes -- they give something tangible for participants to take home, and it serves as marketing 18:48
rdieter mizmo: or swag in general, but I figure t-shirts are the biggest $$ item at the moment ? 18:48
dgilmore mizmo: perhaps we can do a plant a tree for me/give me a t-shirt option for events 18:48
jds2001 jsmith: seriously, given your background, are you going to encourage increased usage of F-Talk by contributors? 18:48
mizmo dgilmore, i really like that idea 18:48
jsmith mizmo: That being said, there are probably other things we can consider 18:48
jds2001 t-shirts are something like $6/each iirc 18:49
jsmith mizmo: When we do create t-shirts, it may make sense not to tie them to one particular meeting or date 18:49
mizmo i kind of like the idea of virtual swag too 18:49
stickster mizmo: Virtual swag interestingly ties into spot's idea for contributor karma 18:49
mizmo spot has suggested this before, but something like levels or badges you earn through your work 18:49
jsmith mizmo: So instead of branding them with "FUDCon Zimbabwe 2020", we can simply brand them "Fedora" 18:49
mizmo stickster, exactly lol 18:49
jsmith mizmo: That decreases waste and allows for better reuse 18:49
smooge I look at it as something different. If we sold the shirts we could make more money to spend on FUDcon 18:49
mizmo jsmith, yeh i think that's a good idea too 18:49
Devilment Fedora, the MMORPG ;) 18:50
jsmith jds2001: Yes, I encourage Fedora Talk in cases where it makes sense.. Voice communication is one important tool 18:50
mizmo smooge, yeh... maybe shirt sales could fund contributor plane trips - 18:50
stickster smooge: Interesting point. Shirt sales to pay for FUDPub food? 18:50
ctyler mizmo: otoh, I think shirts have value in identifying with the community and spreading our marketing message. I think they carry a lot of value for their cost. 18:50
mizmo smooge, all the time in the logo queue i have folks asking if they can sell shirts and other materials with our logo, why cant we 18:50
jsmith jds2001: There are obviously places where voice leads to less transparency, which we want to be careful about 18:50
stickster mizmo: Mainly because we have no place to *put the money*. 18:50
mizmo ctyler, but theres some of us who go every year - i must have at least 15 fedora or fudcon shirts 18:50
jds2001 jsmith: exactly 18:50
smooge mizmo, stickster Red Hat for the first 5 years was paid for by swag sales. We were a company that sold you a T-shirt and gave you a Cdrom. 18:50
* stickster points to archives where this has been discussed repeatedly :-) 18:50
stickster Let me take a second and frame the issue here 18:51
mizmo stickster, i know, maybe accepting $ is getting off track, but i think in some part tshirts are kind of wasteful 18:51
smooge stickster, I will look at them. sorry I didn't meant o bring up old dead business 18:51
* stickster aborts framing the issue 18:51
jsmith spot, rdieter: Do you have a question for me? 18:51
mizmo and if they're not organic shirts.... 18:51
stickster mizmo: It's an issue worth considering! 18:51
smooge mizmo, you have never seen my kid who had been depressed for me being away for a week go crazy with his Fedora shirt. He wears it to school as "Thats what my Dad does" 18:52
* stickster thinks we're not tied to t-shirts or any other kind of swag. 18:52
spot jsmith: well, i did, but lots of people beat me to mine. :) 18:52
mizmo i think whenever we produce something we should think about how it's going to die if that makes sense 18:52
jsmith spot: Fair enough :-) 18:52
* spot is not an original thinker today 18:52
jsmith mizmo: I agree... let's not focus so much on the short-term that we don't loose the long-term perspective 18:52
stickster er, s/loose// [sic] 18:53
* dgilmore wants all organic swap within 5 years 18:53
jsmith Doh! Told you I couldn't type 18:53
rdieter jsmith: for some background, what first brought you to use/contribute-to fedora, and prior to becoming fpl, where was most of your interest in fedora? 18:53
dgilmore /sswap/swag/ 18:53
dgilmore i fail 18:53
stickster dgilmore: When we can have all organic laptops, we'll really be cooking. 18:53
mizmo dgilmore, it totally fits our values i think 18:53
* jds2001 buys dgilmore an organic hard drive to put his swap on :D 18:53
jsmith rdieter: Good questions... I started using Linux around the RH 4.2 / 5.0 time frame. 18:53
jsmith rdieter: And I was lucky enough to have an employer that encouraged me to learn it well, and gave me plenty of time to do so 18:54
dgilmore jds2001: as long as it has a soy based ink cubs logo on it 18:54
jsmith rdieter: When Fedora was born, I continued on as a user, but wasn't much of a contributor 18:54
jds2001 dgilmore: nah, it'd have a cardinals logo 18:54
jsmith rdieter: I'd post bugs from time to time and try out the betas and follow the -test list, but wasn't really a contributor 18:55
jsmith rdieter: Over time, however, I started to get involved in the docs project. I'd done some work with DocBook and publishing, and wanted to help contribute 18:55
jsmith rdieter: stickster then tricked me into coming to my first FUDCon in Raleigh 18:56
jsmith rdieter: That's really what energized me to be a more active participant 18:56
stickster I'm sometimes crafty that way. 18:56
jsmith rdieter: From there, dgilmore and jcollie encouraged me to help with Fedora Talk, and so I got into the infrastructure a bit 18:57
rdieter more like trickster 18:57
jsmith The rest, as they say, is history 18:57
stickster rdieter:  ;-) 18:57
jsmith rdieter: Good one... 18:57
mizmo bwahaha 18:57
jsmith Based on my own experience, I hope we all take the time to help others have that same sort of "ah ha!" moment 18:58
meGenius excuse me, but, do the board members have a salary for being board members?? 18:58
stickster meGenius: No. 18:58
stickster meGenius: The FPL is a paid position at Red Hat, whose duties include chairing the Board. 18:58
meGenius stickster: i see! 18:58
stickster Some Board members, elected or appointed, are paid employees of Red Hat, but are not paid to be on the Board in particular. They do it to better serve the Fedora community and to help make a difference through active leadership. 18:59
jsmith #info Just about out of time... any last-minute questions? 18:59
mizmo meGenius, i work on the Board for the pleasure of serving you, not for buckazoids :) 18:59
jds2001 and there are several members that are not employed by red hat, both elected and appointed. 18:59
meGenius mizmo: thank you :) 19:00
mizmo meGenius, youre most welcome :) 19:00
spot wait, then why am i getting paid in those anonymous envelopes? 19:00
BH-Alex QUESTION can we get a 2-sentence summary of what happened? 19:00
stickster jds2001: Thanks, I just erased my next lines because you said it faster. :-) 19:00
jsmith BH-Alex: "of what happened"? What happened with respect to what? 19:00
smooge spot, because you are the person we have to bribe to keep our jobs 19:00
mizmo spot, ssssh that's the pony prank funds 19:00
BH-Alex With respect to the result of this meeting 19:01
jds2001 i think it went really well. 19:01
mizmo BH-Alex, I'm gonna do a blog post summary but it'll be longer than two sentences hehe 19:01
jsmith BH-Alex: Yes... I'd be happy to do that. The entire log will be posted as well 19:01
BH-Alex okay thanks 19:01
mizmo BH-Alex, it'll be on later 19:01
jsmith mizmo: Thanks! 19:01
mizmo jsmith, my pleasure 19:01
stickster BH-Alex: I think this meeting was an interesting experiment. Mainly it was intended to let the community get more directly participatory in a Board meeting, and to give Jared a chance to say howdy to people. 19:01
* jds2001 should do a blog summary too 19:01
jsmith The shorter version is this: We experimented with a completely open IRC board meeting, and had the Q&A first. 19:02
jsmith It was also a chance to let people get to know me a bit better, as well as other members of the board 19:02
jds2001 how do we determine if this experiment was a success or failure? 19:02
meGenius do you take into consideration what other ditros do?? 19:02
BH-Alex This highly resembled a City Hall meeting in my local town. Which is interesting. I guess it's working. 19:02
mizmo i have to say the logs are going to be really hard to follow 19:02
jsmith meGenius: We certainly keep it in mind, but we chart our own course. 19:02
mizmo up to 4 discussoins interweaved at any given time 19:02
jds2001 meGenius: one of the four foundations is First 19:02
jds2001 meGenius: we lead, not follow. 19:02
ctyler mizmo: need AI thread-rewriting sw :-) 19:03
stickster mizmo: I agree. I think the Board will need to do something a little more structured for these meetings to stay sane and develop actionable work. 19:03
jsmith OK... I'm going to go ahead and end the meeting 19:03
mizmo ctyler, lol yes. and it has to be smarter than my brain cuz right now it's smokin' 19:03
mizmo stickster, i want a queuebot! 19:03
jds2001 hehe 19:03
* mizmo steals pony prank funds back to build a queuebot with 19:03
jsmith #action Board to discuss open format in next board meeting, and decide on plan of action for next IRC meeting 19:03
Devilment hasn't there been Fedora town hall meetings in the past? 19:03
stickster Devilment: Not in this format, with no moderation or queue. 19:04
meGenius mizmo: i guess so too! 19:04
jsmith Devilment: Yes, they happen quite often... just in a bit different format 19:04
jsmith #info Last call 19:04
jsmith Going once... 19:04
jsmith Going twice... 19:04
jsmith ... Gone! 19:04
jsmith #endmeeting 19:04

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